Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[FILM Ferrania]

Why not sending master rolls to Ilford for finishing?

That's an excellent question! I wish I knew the entire answer.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Could you enlighten us on roughly how much film area or rolls of film this would relate to?

Taking into account all of the posts here, you are misinterpreting. I said from start (making the emulsion to coating it) and finishing it! This also includes testing it on the way. Making varies from 10 L to 100 L in some cases and coating from 5" to 11" to 21" to 42" to 72", so it is nearly impossible to be more specific as I don't know what anyone is making here for tests. And, the cost goes up for each layer. That is why so much of this discussion is pointless. No one knows what is being made at any one time.

PE

 

[alanrockwood]

...That is why so much of this discussion is pointless...

PE

I can agree to that, pointless given the miss-communications. I thought we were still talking about finishing costs, since that was the most recent part of cost that was specifically identified by stage of processing (post number 3597) before I posted my questions, so I incorrectly assumed that "production run" was still referring to finishing costs. I apologize for misinterpreting the thread of the discussion.

Well, in any case, a dollar figure for a production run really doesn't mean much without at least a rough idea of how much product a production run produces and what type of product is being produced.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Alan, finishing costs are part of the overall range I gave above.

PE

 

[Diapositivo]

I beg your pardon if the question was already answered in the thread (I had a problem with pointers, and I read today many pages of backlog).

The question is: when the work on the 120 finishing machine is completed and finishing for 120 film is made in-house, will also the backing paper be produced inside Ferrania? Will Ferrania be completely self-sufficient as far as 120 film is concerned?

 

[Prof_Pixel]

will also the backing paper be produced inside Ferrania?

LOL. I think we all know the answer to that! If Kodak can't make backing paper now, how could a MUCH smaller operation (like Ferrania) do that?

 

[railwayman3]

LOL. I think we all know the answer to that! If Kodak can't make backing paper now, how could a MUCH smaller operation (like Ferrania) do that?

I don't know the answer to that. But I wonder why, in recent years, there have been so many apparent issues with Kodak and other suppliers of backing paper awith difficulties in finding ink, etc., to avoid offset.....when 120 and other roll films have been successfully produced by numerous different companies for over 100 years, with, SFAIK, negligible real problems ?

 

[Diapositivo]

LOL. I think we all know the answer to that! If Kodak can't make backing paper now, how could a MUCH smaller operation (like Ferrania) do that?

In the old times they were totally self-sufficient and they had the machinery to produce the backing paper, so the question seems legitimate to me. Certainly in the long run they will be able again to produce backing paper.

 

[twelvetone12]

LOL. I think we all know the answer to that! If Kodak can't make backing paper now, how could a MUCH smaller operation (like Ferrania) do that?

Because they preserved the machines instead of nuking them as Kodak?
To be fair, I don't know if Ferrania ever made backing paper, but being a smaller operation than Kodak really means nothing. EK cannot make acetate for the same reason, while Ferrania still has the working plant. If then they will actually have chance to bring them online is another matter.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It is the chemistry and papers that are hard to make.

PE

 

[trendland]

LOL. I think we all know the answer to that! If Kodak can't make backing paper now, how could a MUCH smaller operation (like Ferrania) do that?

Prof. - as an academic corifee you shoudn't (LOL) - and just remember :
Wasn't it Ferrania the big manufacturer in the past - well known as a finishing proffessional?
I had some issues in mind - it was the last period from Ferrania Film (to the time they had stopped production to all Ferrania Films) Rollei decided to give masterolls for cutting to Ferrania.
Because Ferrania was able to finish masses of film - they still had all machines.
But I can't say if this deal was acomplished. It may have been Ferranias last action in operating business.
(Before reconstruction phase)

with regards

PS : I can't imagine how it may be such complicate to produce backing paper with good characteristics.
This technical approach was simple business within 1915 - 1925 later it was much more simple.
And today ?

 

[trendland]

LOL. I think we all know the answer to that! If Kodak can't make backing paper now, how could a MUCH smaller operation (like Ferrania) do that?

Sorry for wrong english - lets better say :
"academic authority."

with regards

 

[trendland]

It is the chemistry and papers that are hard to make.

PE

The chems aren't easily to integrate in a production standard with allways
THE SAME BEST QUALITY.
This should stand for emulsion backing,
paper manufacturing (photo paper) a.s.o.
But backing paper ?
May be it is not very correct but the todays paper industry with more than hundreds of companies should be able to produce normal backing paper.
The cutting of this paper is an other issue - but I could imagine paper industry may also be competent for this....
The assembling/finishing with the films
sould better not to be done from normal
paper industry .....

with regards

 

[Photo Engineer]

Backing paper uses carbon black which is often made from tallow or coal. These contain many sulfur residues which can ruin film! Kodak was much bigger than either 3M or Ferrania and still is AAMOF. And Kodak is now no longer making their own.

PE

 

[lantau]

Backing paper uses carbon black which is often made from tallow or coal. These contain many sulfur residues which can ruin film! Kodak was much bigger than either 3M or Ferrania and still is AAMOF. And Kodak is now no longer making their own.

PE

The same carbon black that goes into remjet?

 

[Photo Engineer]

IDK, but probably so. But then there are the inks too in backing paper and the sizing agents in the paper along with the actual paper itself.

PE

 

[trendland]

Backing paper uses carbon black which is often made from tallow or coal. These contain many sulfur residues which can ruin film! Kodak was much bigger than either 3M or Ferrania and still is AAMOF. And Kodak is now no longer making their own.

PE

Yes I know about Kodaks absense in that way. So the problem of alternate production is caused from chemical purity of substances given to carbon black. AND it should make clear : R&D is a need to avoid backing paper problems.
That should be a case of experience AND
costs.
Better not give such job to the paper industry.
3M was allways not the best player -
just remember the 80th.
Ferrania itself told us the same......
At last : Hope one can buy films soon.

thanks for information.

with regards

PS : My backing paper was allways good.
But I often don't trust to give it away.
Perhaps I may need it in the future !

 

[Europan]

No, lamp soot, gas flames
http://www.carbonblack.jp/en/cb/seizou.html

 

[trendland]

No, lamp soot, gas flames
http://www.carbonblack.jp/en/cb/seizou.html

Mitsubishi Chemical seams to be competent to produce the right stuff.
From that/therefore no issues with Fuji backing paper are known ?
with regards

 

[Photo Engineer]

I repeat --- INK.

PE

 

[trendland]

TO Film Ferrania again : Meanwile my sympathy with new emulsions from Ferrania is a little smaler.
TO me it is the time NOW to make it possible to order films.
In the past (month before) I don't wanted to buy films because of much to high shipping costs. Later I noticed there might be quality issues comming from first production run.
BUT MEANWHILE I WOULD NOT CARE ABOUT 1) higher costs 2) less quality
if one could just order the stuff.
I would also not CARE about if I would pay the ordered films imediately and would have to wait 8 weeks until the delivering is finished.
From my oppinium THIS could be the max. tollerance costomers could have !
Perhaps others think in same direction.
But I wonder about that it is not possible :
Your Shop is "under construction/in progress" since month.
????

with regards

 

[trendland]

I repeat --- INK.

PE

Yes PE the ink (hope this is not a unknown abrivation to me like "I. N.everK.now" ) the ink (to set markings on backing paper) is possible the main failure from alternate backing paper manufacturers - I easily could imagine.
They obviously don't care about from less experience and used some kind of normal ink.
In this concern I remember archived bw
negatives out of the 20th with hand made notes (via pencil) on the paper between.
(from archived stripes). Laterr on - some films negatives recived such ink also - after decades.
And I remember well such ink markings directly set via pencil onto my first bw negatives as a great "X"
(first shots within my age of 6 years marked from my grandpa.......60% unsharp...)
I do remember this.....

with regards

 

[railwayman3]

Backing paper uses carbon black which is often made from tallow or coal. These contain many sulfur residues which can ruin film! Kodak was much bigger than either 3M or Ferrania and still is AAMOF. And Kodak is now no longer making their own.

PE

I understand what you say in this and other posts, but I'm still mystified how 120 and other sizes of roll film, were successfully made over 100 years ago by numerous companies (including small operations) without all the backing paper issues we have now. Perhaps it's a lost art, like Altichrome.

 

[alanrockwood]

...Perhaps it's a lost art, like Altichrome.

Yes, possibly a lost art.

A few years ago I contacted Ilford with some questions about spectral response of the layers in variable contrast papers. They did not know the answers because the relevant knowledge and/or documentation was lost somewhere along the way... another example of lost art.

My guess is that there is quite a bit of that (losing the art) going on in companies with troubled histories, or even in troubles with less troubled histories. I once worked for a company that decided to move production from one site to another. After the move they could not reliably build the product any more, partly because they decided to in-source some of the production rather than continue to use certain outsourced parts, but also because they no longer had the manufacturing expertise available for the product once they moved it to a new site.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It is not a lost art. It is due to changes forced in manufacturing to rid the world of pollution. Notably, removal of Lead, Cadmium and Mercury replacing them with less toxic materials has caused the films to respond differently to contaminants and in the different tests used to test for the keeping properties.

PE