Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[FILM Ferrania]

I beg your pardon if the question was already answered in the thread (I had a problem with pointers, and I read today many pages of backlog).

The question is: when the work on the 120 finishing machine is completed and finishing for 120 film is made in-house, will also the backing paper be produced inside Ferrania? Will Ferrania be completely self-sufficient as far as 120 film is concerned?

Initially, no.
For the short term, we have two potential suppliers of backing paper - and this will get us out the door sooner.

The long-term plan:

• We have our own "recipe" for the paper itself, the printing ink, and the carbon black coating. 3M-Ferrania made backing papers in-house and so we have all of the specs, procedures, components, and even their old supplier info (some of which is still good).
• We are fairly certain that our storage building contains everything necessary to produce our own "3M-spec" backing paper production line.

If that doesn't work out, we have a backup plan:

• Find the right paper supplier, and use our precision coater to coat the carbon black. We would need to send it out for printing, which is trickier than one might suspect, but doable...
• Running backing paper while trying to sustain film production isn't really practical right now - but in a pinch, it's also doable.

This is one of many projects that sit in our queue. Reality will dictate when we need to get started on it.


Self-sufficient depends on how you look at it...
We will consider ourselves self-sufficient when we do not rely on any other film manufacturer for components and/or services.
We will always need suppliers, but self-sufficiency for us means getting as close to purely raw materials as is feasible.

Will we manufacture our boxes and decals or fastening stickers? Will we make paper from wood pulp? These things are highly unlikely since they are far easier to purchase on the open market.
Will we make our own cores, spools, caps, and other plastic bits? Probably not, but if we have to, we have blueprints for molds that can quickly become CAD files...
It's very unlikely we will ever produce polyester base in-house, so for large format films, we will buy that.
We won't be making photographic gelatin in-house for some time yet - but again, if we need to, we have the necessary IP. We would just need to buy the bones.

Sustainability and flexibility are our primary directives, and the degree of self-sufficiency we require will be judged against those criteria.
Only time and circumstance, as well as the response of the wider industry to our collaborative outreach, will decide how "fully" self-sufficient we need to be.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes, but Kodak thought they had all of the outsourcing problems licked too - so good luck on this.

PE

 

[Harry Callahan]

Couldn´t Kodak just laser the numbers onto the backing-paper? Slightly burn the surface with a laser until the lasered parts become dark and make a number? By that chemicals (ink) could be avioded... unless the burning of the backing-paper by laser creates some new chemicals reacting with the emulsion...

 

[alanrockwood]

It is not a lost art...

PE

That's good to know.

 

[Europan]

What I don’t understand is why Film Ferrania is not offering new P. 30 as ciné film. They can coat, they can slit, they can perforate, why not convert that stock to 16mm, perforated both edges (much needed), Double-8, and 9½. If I had my way, I should seek to establish back relations with photo dealers around the globe, send them big dummy boxes for the shop window, three free 25-foot portions of Double-Eight P. 30, a pricelist, and a respectful letter signed by Pagni and Baldini. Now that Kodak is raising prices a cheap film could break up the situation. One could even slit Double-Eight to Straight-Eight in an attempt to reach those who possess a corresponding camera. There were ten such products: Bell & Howell Filmo Straight Eight (1935), Universal Univex A-8 (1936), Agfa Movex 8 (1937), Bauer 8 (1938), Nizo AK 1 × 8 (1949), Meopta Somet 8 (1950), Blaupunkt E-8 (1950), Bolsey 8 Finetta (1955), Krasnogorsk Kama (1958), Krasnogorsk Ekran-8 (1960).

It’s about having a foot in the door first. From that it is incomprehensible that no other player is trying to catch the market with film that never has backing paper issues: ciné film. Adox could convert CMS 20 II to 16mm, Ilford could convert Pan F plus to 16mm again after they quietly killed it in 2003. Rochester is simply too lazy to try it out, they have the tools for 16mm double perforation. Foma Bohemia makes 16mm Fomapan R, but no negative stock. If I was a film manufacturer with a stock that’s accepted by photographers from all over the world, I’d try to push it into every conceivable channel (less Super-8). Guerrilla marketing!

Oh, and since I’m at it: why not a positive stock? Unsensitized print film on TAC in every format, in long rolls, and cheap. The example is there, ORWO PF 2 V3.

 

[Harry Callahan]

I think they will sooner or later. But now they have to get their 35mm-line running first as 135 probably is selling the best. Getting the cine-perforators running (or installed into some rooms) probably would be counterproductive now - but even then they still need reels, cans, packing for that etc. . Cine would be more work/investment than 135 but poorer sales.

 

[Europan]

I am a mechanician and machinist, have offered them to help set up things, never got an answer. Wrote an E-Mail in Italian as I speak some Italian.

 

[twelvetone12]

Sorry Europan, I'm a huge fan of double8, but reasonably, how much do you think the market is big for Ferrania (or anybody else, for the matter) to invest in it?

 

[Europan]

Having a Paillard-Bolex H-8* in service right now (made in 1956) besides a number of other cameras I service year after year, cameras for 9.5mm film, 16mm film, for Double-8 film, I understand that amateur and semi-professional movie making with photochemical film lives on. I know that hundreds, maybe thousands of enthusiasts buy film but would buy more, if stocks were available. A price just shy of 30 Dollars for one Super-8 cartridge, mind you, containing film for 3,600 frames is too high. The 25-ft. Double-8 portion contains 2,000 frames per side or 4,000 on the finished 50-ft. reel. You also have 4,000 frames on a 100-ft. roll of 16mm. There is exactly one true reversal black-and-white film on the market, Fomapan R. Too expensive

The effort installing a combined 16mm-Double 8 perforator might amount to $ 5,000, tooling and surrounding. That money is not lost for a long time. Punches and dies can be resharpened about 20 times which yields 20 million strokes of sharply cut holes. 20,000,000/4,000 = 5,000 hundred footers. Assuming a profit of $ 10 per roll the manufacturer makes $ 50,000. That is for a little less than 2,500 square meters.

I admit that one has a battle of material, may I say, with Double-8. Spool, film, paper or rubber band, can, adhesive tape, printed instruction leaflet, printed box, glue . . . However, instructions and box can be omitted. Long rolls can be sold to finishers and given to photo dealers. Not that anyone ever got rich from processing film but labs are always interested in follow-up business. 16mm is the width to go.

*The owner of the camera is 20 years of age.

 

[fdonadio]

Rochester is simply too lazy to try it out, they have the tools for 16mm double perforation

They sell Tri-X and Double-X in 16mm. You just have to order directly from Eastman-Kodak. I think I saw one of these for sale at B&H, but I might be wrong.

Edit: Sorry, they only have single perf film in 16mm.

 

[fdonadio]

Sorry, they only have single perf film in 16mm.

Strangely, they make Vision3 500T in 16mm double perf as a finish to order product. So, in theory, they could offer every other emulsion in the same format.

This is the latest price catalog: https://www.kodak.com/uploadedFiles...ucts-Price-Catalog-US-Prices_Sept_2017_V9.pdf

 

[lantau]

Couldn´t Kodak just laser the numbers onto the backing-paper? Slightly burn the surface with a laser until the lasered parts become dark and make a number? By that chemicals (ink) could be avioded... unless the burning of the backing-paper by laser creates some new chemicals reacting with the emulsion...

Do you know what is happening when you burn paper? An incredible number of random chemical reactions. For any given paper and intensity of your Laser all kind of chemicals can be produced there. It is possible that nothing will be made that will interfere with the film. But you may just as well get stuff that will interact with the emulsion. Given Kodaks trouble I'd wager that you don't need much of it.

 

[Europan]

Strangely, they make Vision3 500T in 16mm double perf as a finish to order product. So, in theory, they could offer every other emulsion in the same format.

Of course. The high speed film with 2-row perf. is for high-speed cameras. Here are some camera types that take 2-row perforated film:

• Bolex Auto, models A and B
• Ciné-Nizo
• Schalie-Collée
• Suchánek Admira Ledvinka
  
• Ciné-Kodak Special due to its unique lateral guidance for Kodacolor
  
• Bell & Howell Filmo 70-A/B/C models until August 1930, since then not imperatively
• Paillard-Bolex H-16 models until serial number 76,470
• Zeiss-Ikon Movikon 16
• Mitchell 16

 

[twelvetone12]

Some time ago John Schwind offerent 500d in regular8mm (I tested it)

 

[FILM Ferrania]

TO Film Ferrania again : Meanwile my sympathy with new emulsions from Ferrania is a little smaler.
TO me it is the time NOW to make it possible to order films.
In the past (month before) I don't wanted to buy films because of much to high shipping costs. Later I noticed there might be quality issues comming from first production run.
BUT MEANWHILE I WOULD NOT CARE ABOUT 1) higher costs 2) less quality
if one could just order the stuff.
I would also not CARE about if I would pay the ordered films imediately and would have to wait 8 weeks until the delivering is finished.
From my oppinium THIS could be the max. tollerance costomers could have !
Perhaps others think in same direction.
But I wonder about that it is not possible :
Your Shop is "under construction/in progress" since month.
????

with regards

We have one person on staff to manage sales (as well as other duties) - and that is me.

Opening and managing the shop is a lot of work because we are very far from having an automated sales system that works exactly as we wish.
I work very fast and efficiently, but there is only so much one person can do in the face of thousands of orders.
The pre-sale of last spring proved to be an overwhelming amount of work for everyone - not just me.

What became crystal clear was that selling film that was not yet manufactured was not sustainable - and we cannot bury ourselves in that process again.

We will re-open our online shop this week, with various limits. We will be posting an update about this shortly.

Regarding the shipping cost:
We heard some grumbling about the costs during our pre-sale - both the film cost and the shipping cost.
There is not much to be done about either thing if we are to remain in business. And if we are to grow, we must try to scrape out some kind of profit.
If our current pricing limits sales to some degree, this is not the worst thing because our supply is so very limited.

Regarding the quality of P30:
The various quality-checks are, in fact, a big reason why our supply is so limited at the moment.
The many thousands of photos posted around the web should be proof enough that defects in the film are, at best, vanishingly rare.
Our new shop spells out the returns policy very clearly, should anyone find a defect.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I am a mechanician and machinist, have offered them to help set up things, never got an answer. Wrote an E-Mail in Italian as I speak some Italian.

You should have received a response, to be fair, but we are simply unable to hire anyone until certain milestones are met.
We cannot even accept volunteers because there are laws about who is allowed into the building at any given time.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Yes, but Kodak thought they had all of the outsourcing problems licked too - so good luck on this.
PE

If it's tough for Kodak, you can imagine how difficult it is for us.

 

[trendland]

We have one person on staff to manage sales (as well as other duties) - and that is me.

Opening and managing the shop is a lot of work because we are very far from having an automated sales system that works exactly as we wish.
I work very fast and efficiently, but there is only so much one person can do in the face of thousands of orders.
The pre-sale of last spring proved to be an overwhelming amount of work for everyone - not just me.

What became crystal clear was that selling film that was not yet manufactured was not sustainable - and we cannot bury ourselves in that process again.

We will re-open our online shop this week, with various limits. We will be posting an update about this shortly.

Regarding the shipping cost:
We heard some grumbling about the costs during our pre-sale - both the film cost and the shipping cost.
There is not much to be done about either thing if we are to remain in business. And if we are to grow, we must try to scrape out some kind of profit.
If our current pricing limits sales to some degree, this is not the worst thing because our supply is so very limited.

Regarding the quality of P30:
The various quality-checks are, in fact, a big reason why our supply is so limited at the moment.
The many thousands of photos posted around the web should be proof enough that defects in the film are, at best, vanishingly rare.
Our new shop spells out the returns policy very clearly, should anyone find a defect.

Thank you much for reply Film Ferania - this are great news to so many I would imagine.

with regards

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I understand what you say in this and other posts, but I'm still mystified how 120 and other sizes of roll film, were successfully made over 100 years ago by numerous companies (including small operations) without all the backing paper issues we have now. Perhaps it's a lost art, like Altichrome.

It should not be that hard to understand.
The film market is roughly 99% smaller than it was in the year 2000. Give or take. Even with the bump we've all seen in recent years.
If 99% of an industry's entire market disappears, then you must also lose 99% of the industry - everything from entire factories, to machines, to component suppliers - simply to survive.
This grand downsizing has left few survivors, a lot of chaos, and some inadvertent monopolies. (I say "inadvertent" because they gained that status only after their competition gradually went out of business.)

Some of the "art" has also been lost, for sure. We are safe for some time yet, but finding new staff and building the necessary experience is a very big issue for the long-term.

As it stands today, there are most certainly 99% fewer ways to obtain backing paper than there were 18 years ago - never mind 100 years ago.

 

[trendland]

Having a Paillard-Bolex H-8* in service right now (made in 1956) besides a number of other cameras I service year after year, cameras for 9.5mm film, 16mm film, for Double-8 film, I understand that amateur and semi-professional movie making with photochemical film lives on. I know that hundreds, maybe thousands of enthusiasts buy film but would buy more, if stocks were available. A price just shy of 30 Dollars for one Super-8 cartridge, mind you, containing film for 3,600 frames is too high. The 25-ft. Double-8 portion contains 2,000 frames per side or 4,000 on the finished 50-ft. reel. You also have 4,000 frames on a 100-ft. roll of 16mm. There is exactly one true reversal black-and-white film on the market, Fomapan R. Too expensive

The effort installing a combined 16mm-Double 8 perforator might amount to $ 5,000, tooling and surrounding. That money is not lost for a long time. Punches and dies can be resharpened about 20 times which yields 20 million strokes of sharply cut holes. 20,000,000/4,000 = 5,000 hundred footers. Assuming a profit of $ 10 per roll the manufacturer makes $ 50,000. That is for a little less than 2,500 square meters.

I admit that one has a battle of material, may I say, with Double-8. Spool, film, paper or rubber band, can, adhesive tape, printed instruction leaflet, printed box, glue . . . However, instructions and box can be omitted. Long rolls can be sold to finishers and given to photo dealers. Not that anyone ever got rich from processing film but labs are always interested in follow-up business. 16mm is the width to go.

*The owner of the camera is 20 years of age.

Europan - to me - it seams to be a problem of your goverment.
You have the wrong president. D.T. would
say :"I'll make Swizzerland great again. I'll
create thousants of jobs in the cinefilm-camera industries within just 6 month.
There will be a great future. So many people need 8mm,16mm,Super8 and double 8 films and other equipment.And I may say these people are fine people.
Let's make this whole industries great again.
Europan - seriously - he might be right with such intention.
The problem is the small demand. Perhaps you will follow my theory.
With demand there are allways just 2 ways : 1.) the demand is still there and manufacturers are forced to follow this demand. Otherwise other companies will make their profits.
2.) there is in total no demand.
Then business man were payed for to
CREATE A DEMAND TO PRODUCTS.
Perhaps they did not learned how this should work.
Look at Apple : Did you noticed a demand
to tablet - pc's before 2005 ?
It could be so easy if one have just a vision.
with regards

PS : There wasn't a demand to a Saturn5
before Kennedy"s speach - and then........

 

[cmacd123]

As far a P30 as Movie film. I can see a limited demand in 16mm, just because the only other B&W negative films in 16mm are 5222 at 250ASA, UN54 at 100 ASA and N74 at 400ASA and movie cameras tend to have a 1/50th of a second shutter speed so a slower film is an advantage. An ASA 25-50film would be great.

As much as I would love to see Regular 8 in production, I don't believe that anyone can make a positive print from regular 8, while a very few labs still are set up to make prints from 16mm. Both formats can be scanned.

Once the colour REVERSAL is available of course printing stops being an issue. And then I will be waiting with bated breath for the regular 8.

I am sure that 1000% more stock could be sold as 120 than as movie stock at this time.

Super 8 would require a lot of fancy assembly and unless the machinery does not need much work, it would be many times more complex than even 120.

 

[cmacd123]

Regarding the shipping cost:
We heard some grumbling about the costs during our pre-sale - both the film cost and the shipping cost.
There is not much to be done about either thing if we are to remain in business. And if we are to grow, we must try to scrape out some kind of profit.
If our current pricing limits sales to some degree, this is not the worst thing because our supply is so very limited.
.

MY only complaint was that the shipping cost could have shipped many more rolls than the maximum 5 that were allowed. I am hoping that you can see your way clear to allow lots of say 20 rolls in one package to keep the shipping per roll down.

 

[jonasfj]

I have an idea!

How about financing the the necessary investments by introducing the FerraniaCoin, a block-chain technology cryptocurrency that can be used to buy future products from Film Ferrania including the postcards... ???

 

[Harry Callahan]

Do you know what is happening when you burn paper? An incredible number of random chemical reactions. For any given paper and intensity of your Laser all kind of chemicals can be produced there. It is possible that nothing will be made that will interfere with the film. But you may just as well get stuff that will interact with the emulsion. Given Kodaks trouble I'd wager that you don't need much of it.

I see. I guess there also is no way of coating the backing-paper so the ink no longer can react with the elmusion?

Of course. The high speed film with 2-row perf. is for high-speed cameras. Here are some camera types that take 2-row perforated film:

• Bolex Auto, models A and B
• Ciné-Nizo
• Schalie-Collée
• Suchánek Admira Ledvinka
  
• Ciné-Kodak Special due to its unique lateral guidance for Kodacolor
  
• Bell & Howell Filmo 70-A/B/C models until August 1930, since then not imperatively
• Paillard-Bolex H-16 models until serial number 76,470
• Zeiss-Ikon Movikon 16
• Mitchell 16

There also were those 16mm-50ft-magazines, made by Kodak, for amateur-magazine-cameras. Not really professional stuff but very handy. These also require double-perf. film.

....
Then business man were payed for to
CREATE A DEMAND TO PRODUCTS.
Perhaps they did not learned how this should work.
Look at Apple : Did you noticed a demand
to tablet - pc's before 2005 ?
It could be so easy if one have just a vision.
....

Hm... maybe we could create some demand by telling everyone that digital is EVIL? I mean we all know that it is right? ( )

As far a P30 as Movie film. I can see a limited demand in 16mm, just because the only other B&W negative films in 16mm are 5222 at 250ASA, UN54 at 100 ASA and N74 at 400ASA and movie cameras tend to have a 1/50th of a second shutter speed so a slower film is an advantage. An ASA 25-50film would be great.

As much as I would love to see Regular 8 in production, I don't believe that anyone can make a positive print from regular 8, while a very few labs still are set up to make prints from 16mm. Both formats can be scanned.
...

I think P30 is very suitable for regular 8 as P30 seems to have a very fine grain. That´s an advantage for small formats and its speed (80ISO) also is pretty handy as one hadn´t to fuzz around with grey-filters all the time the sun is shining (if one would pull it down to 50ISO or use a light red-filter to compensate for the reduced red-sensitivity).
I think i read somewhere that P30 is good in reversal developement.

 

[tih]

Is it me or the Ferrania shop is still closed despite the hype of reopening it by 15th of January?

I believe they said they were aiming for the 15th for the USA shop, with the EU shop following a week later, not that any of them definitely would be opened by the 15th. Anyway, as recently as yesterday, this update was posted here:

We will re-open our online shop this week, with various limits. We will be posting an update about this shortly.