Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[twelvetone12]

Wasn't Ektachrome discontinued just five years ago?

 

[pentaxuser]

Kodak has already let it out that their upcoming Ektachrome film has to be reformulated. That means a new product and not an old one. Time will tell if the people who remain at Kodak are able to formulate a product the way the legacy people did decades ago.

Of course what really counts is not whether it is a new formulation and thus by definition not the same Ektachrome of old but whether it produces what the consumer will regard as acceptable quality chrome. While the number of chrome specialists at Kodak may have declined, I'd be surprised if it no longer has sufficient skills and resources to produce acceptable chromes.

We can only wait and see. As it isn't yet the fourth quarter of 2017 obituaries are, I think, still premature

pentaxuser

 

[Vonder]

Exactly, nobody knows including them. I think new Ektachrome will sweep all the hype away. And Ektachrome is happening this winter

I just assume it (the money I gave their Kickstarter) is a personal loss, because they either misrepresented what they intended to do (raise seed money to fund their B&W film development) and never seriously planned to make the slide film, or were a bunch of Pollyanna's about their prospects for success. I won't be backing any other Kickstarters for sure. There's a reason they couldn't get a regular bank loan to finance this.

To all the folks who're enjoying the P30 - you're welcome, from those of us who funded the Kickstarter. Without us them big machines never would have got saved, and there'd be no P30. I personally have no interest whatsoever in P30. I'll be buying Ektachrome too if it comes out, or whatever slide film is still being made. I've definitely never depended on Ferrania as E-6's knight in shining armor.

 

[Vonder]

I've emailed Ferrania on the following point, but without a reply.

As a Kickstarter contributor, I decided to hold-out for the E-6 film rewards when the option to exchange these for P-30 was available. As it seems to be becoming increasingly evident that quality E-6 film has now become pie-in-the-sky for sometime/never, is it still possible to exchange the rewards for an equivalent of P-30 ?

I'd love to have that option too, but I'd simply like to donate whatever the P30 "reward" is to someone who actually wants it.

 

[Wallendo]

Even with the reemergence of EktaChrome, there is still a niche for Ferrania. Fuji's E6 films, including AgfaPhoto CT Precisa, have a saturated cool look. Kodak's E-6 films were more of a saturated warm look. European color films in general have a more muted, almost pastel, look. I tend to prefer bright saturated slides, but I can see where more muted color would be desirable at times.

Of course, we don't know what Ferrania's ScotchChrome revival will actually look like until it arrives.

I am still hoping for my KickStarter reward. Even if I end up just getting a few rolls of free P30 instead, at least I will have helped keep film alive. Like many of the initial backers, I knew there was no guarantee that the film would actually be released, and, in fact, gave up a year or two ago, and was pleasantly surprised when P30 was released.

 

[RattyMouse]

I just assume it (the money I gave their Kickstarter) is a personal loss, because they either misrepresented what they intended to do (raise seed money to fund their B&W film development) and never seriously planned to make the slide film, or were a bunch of Pollyanna's about their prospects for success. I won't be backing any other Kickstarters for sure. There's a reason they couldn't get a regular bank loan to finance this.

To all the folks who're enjoying the P30 - you're welcome, from those of us who funded the Kickstarter. Without us them big machines never would have got saved, and there'd be no P30. I personally have no interest whatsoever in P30. I'll be buying Ektachrome too if it comes out, or whatever slide film is still being made. I've definitely never depended on Ferrania as E-6's knight in shining armor.

Ferannia raised about $300,000 via their kickstart. There's no way that small amount of money that they got funded the past several years that they have been working. There must be some other funding going on as well.

 

[pbromaghin]

I shot my first roll at ISO 80, measured with the internal as well as a Gossen meter. All images came out extremely underexposed with Rodinal 1+50 at 14 mins as Ferrania suggested. The negatives are very thin. Also they are scratched a lot, 4 times "rail lines", along the complete film. That is my honest first test result.

Please post some examples in the P30 thread.

 

[pbromaghin]

I just assume it (the money I gave their Kickstarter) is a personal loss, because they either misrepresented what they intended to do (raise seed money to fund their B&W film development) and never seriously planned to make the slide film, or were a bunch of Pollyanna's about their prospects for success. I won't be backing any other Kickstarters for sure. There's a reason they couldn't get a regular bank loan to finance this.

To all the folks who're enjoying the P30 - you're welcome, from those of us who funded the Kickstarter. Without us them big machines never would have got saved, and there'd be no P30. I personally have no interest whatsoever in P30. I'll be buying Ektachrome too if it comes out, or whatever slide film is still being made. I've definitely never depended on Ferrania as E-6's knight in shining armor.

So you are calling Dave Bias a deliberate and serial liar. Either that or you have not been paying attention.

Dave has made clear repeatedly that the kickstarter and P30 are completely separate efforts, that the kickstarter money was for saving the machinery for the future - after they outgrow the LRF as a production facility - and that is how it was spent. He has also made clear that, before the asbestos and utility fiascoes caused the chemicals they were going to use to expire, they were in much better position to make E6. He has also stated (and PE has backed him up on this) that P30 is a valid, even vital, intermediate step to making the more complex color reversal. Finally, he has said that if they hadn't been able to sell the P30 they would probably be out of business now.

Are those all lies?

 

[kb3lms]

Can anyone under the age of 25 name a film manufacturer other than Kodak...

No. Mostly they have never heard of Kodak.

 

[Vonder]

So you are calling Dave Bias a deliberate and serial liar.

I said that was a possibility. Are you saying that without the kickstarter they'd be making the P30? I don't thinks so. The kickstarter saved the machines and they ended up with P30. Not that P30 was ever mentioned in their kickstarter. I also said they may have been a bunch of Polyanna's too. I'm not sure that believing someone's promises and then being disappointed when they don't deliver makes me some kind of villain in this. I gave them some money so they could save some machines and then give me some E-6 film they were going to make deliver within a year. I know little to nothing about film making but I assumed THEY did. I assumed they'd researched things. Maybe even thought ahead to have the building they were going to use inspected. Here's what the original kickstarter said:

With the existing machinery, staff and materials we have on hand, we are able to make just one very limited batch of film this year. The first stages of film production are already underway.

and

The reward levels are priced to allow us to create this batch, ship it to you, and have enough left over to purchase the remaining machinery that is most crucial to our long-term success.

According to THAT, they had the ability WITHOUT THE MACHINES they were trying to save, to make and deliver the rewards, the E-6 film. Did they lie? Did they? Or did they simply not think things through? If you make a promise, and that promise came about b/c you blindly forged ahead with making it, not checking the facts on the ground, did you lie? They needed the money to get those machines saved and they made promises to get the money. As things have played out it's become apparent they offered something, the rewards, that they had no realistic expectation to being able to deliver. I think they sugar-coated their kickstarter spiel because they needed the money and didn't have time to waste. Along comes dumb-assed me and thinks, kewl, some new slide film to shoot. I'll help them along.

Here's the kicker when they offered the P30 as an alternate reward, they did not, in my opinion, adequately understand, even then, that the E-6 film they promised in the kickstarter was a LONG long way from reality and that it might not even happen. Here's the text from their P30 Kickstarter Program page:

Based on our current status, knowledge of the work ahead, and with the experience we’ve built up over time, we roughly estimate that color reversal rewards will be ready to ship in June/July 2017.

Please note that we have plans in place to allow for black and white production without negatively affecting the development and testing of color. In fact, the more FERRANIA P30® ALPHA we are able to sell, the more freedom we will have to push forward quickly."

That's just more of the same overly-optimistic wording they used in their kickstarter, originally.

Again, I'd love to be out of this altogether. I don't expect nor even care if they ever make E-6 film. I'd love to convert my kickstarter funds to the alternate P30 "reward" as long as I never see the P30. Send it to someone who will use it. If Ferannia ever makes slide film I may even buy some and try it. I don't wish them anything but success.

 

[Diapositivo]

All I'm saying is that many of those might find the new ektachrome stuff just enough to make them forget about ferrania.

I see differently. If Kodak manages to produce "Ektachrome" they will revitalize the entire industry: the laboratories, the distribution, the interest. That will only help Ferrania. The tide Kodak would create would also lift the small Ferrania boat.

If and when Kodak reenters the market, they will probably enjoy a dominant position. That said, there will always be a place for alternative producers, for Ferrania, because some people will like a different colour rendering, a different graininess, or simply will want to encourage choice and competition.
Also, Ferrania might sell at a cheaper price, and might sell as it did in the past through "white labels". They will maybe be able to occupy niches such as infrared, high ISO, large format.

A rebirth of "Ektachrome" would be very or enormously beneficial not just to us all, but to Ferrnia in particular, IMHO.

 

[Berri]

I see differently. If Kodak manages to produce "Ektachrome" they will revitalize the entire industry: the laboratories, the distribution, the interest. That will only help Ferrania. The tide Kodak would create would also lift the small Ferrania boat.

If and when Kodak reenters the market, they will probably enjoy a dominant position. That said, there will always be a place for alternative producers, for Ferrania, because some people will like a different colour rendering, a different graininess, or simply will want to encourage choice and competition.
Also, Ferrania might sell at a cheaper price, and might sell as it did in the past through "white labels". They will maybe be able to occupy niches such as infrared, high ISO, large format.

A rebirth of "Ektachrome" would be very or enormously beneficial not just to us all, but to Ferrnia in particular, IMHO.

Yes, that could be the best scenario. I hope things will go as you say

 

[faberryman]

I see differently. If Kodak manages to produce "Ektachrome" they will revitalize the entire industry: the laboratories, the distribution, the interest.

Assuming that photographers actually buy it.

 

[Berri]

Kodak has already let it out that their upcoming Ektachrome film has to be reformulated. That means a new product and not an old one. Time will tell if the people who remain at Kodak are able to formulate a product the way the legacy people did decades ago.

Of course it has to be reformulated but that is mostly because environmental laws have changed during the last five years. I am confident that Kodak has the right skills and knowledge do achieve a product that is worth the brand. Do you think that if ye olde folks are gone Kodak has lost its heritage and knowledge forever?

 

[RattyMouse]

No. Mostly they have never heard of Kodak.

To the younger generations, Kodak is synonymous with failure and bankruptcy.

I polled the 4 younger chemists in my lab, all well under 30. They either dont know of what Kodak is, or believe that the company disappeared long ago.

All 12 of the older chemists thought Kodak went bust when they went bankrupt. I was the only one who knew Kodak still existed.

 

[Nzoomed]

I agree, and I would shoot any type of film myself including grainy reversal film (I'd love CR 200 if it wasn't that yellow)

I dont know why this yellowing subject of CR200 keeps coming up.
The main issue was a badly stored master roll I suspect which affected a few batches of Rollei stock.
Other shooters of it, along with the wittner stock which is the same film have been flawless.
Here are some photos I shot. Dont see any yellowing at all. Probably the closest film to kodachrome if it was not for the grain.

 

[Berri]

I dont know why this yellowing subject of CR200 keeps coming up.
The main issue was a badly stored master roll I suspect which affected a few batches of Rollei stock.
Other shooters of it, along with the wittner stock which is the same film have been flawless.
Here are some photos I shot. Dont see any yellowing at all. Probably the closest film to kodachrome if it was not for the grain.

I don't know what to say, I tried it few years ago, I might give it another try, but I cannot find it in 135 size at the moment

 

[dhkirby]

Can anyone under the age of 25 name a film manufacturer other than Kodak or possibly Fuji?

Ilford, Adox, Foma, Kentmere, Lucky, Arista, Agfa, Rollei, Lomo, Ferrania, IP. Wittner (though I don't know if they do stills) and Cinestill (though I don't know if you'd count that as a separate brand).

And for the record, I don't want my images scratched or mussed. The colors of Velvia or grain structure of Tri-X put them miles above digital IMHO.

Lemme know if I missed any brands. I'm going off the top of my head, and I'm just a youngun after all

 

[Cholentpot]

Ilford, Adox, Foma, Kentmere, Lucky, Arista, Agfa, Rollei, Lomo, Ferrania, IP. Wittner (though I don't know if they do stills) and Cinestill (though I don't know if you'd count that as a separate brand).

And for the record, I don't want my images scratched or mussed. The colors of Velvia or grain structure of Tri-X put them miles above digital IMHO.

Lemme know if I missed any brands. I'm going off the top of my head, and I'm just a youngun after all

Not here to argue but emulation is pretty darn close. That being said a chrome has a look of it's own and nothing quite looks like B&W. Also B&W has that nice bonus of easy home enlargements. 8x10 and larger can be quite costly if going to a printer.

Also, that list is really about 4-5 companies. The rest are re-brands as far as I know. Cinestill is Kodak, Arista and kentmere are rebrands, most likely Ilford. Lomo are rebrands of other stocks. Others here know better than me though.

 

[Nzoomed]

I don't know what to say, I tried it few years ago, I might give it another try, but I cannot find it in 135 size at the moment

I think wittner-cinetec still have it.
Ive got some spare rolls if they are out of stock.

 

[FilmCurlCom]

I think wittner-cinetec still have it.
Ive got some spare rolls if they are out of stock.

No, Wittner has no 135 Wittnerchrome left. They even said so in one of their website post long ago. You can sometimes still find it from other shops around Europe if you google for it.

 

[MattKing]

kentmere are rebrands

Kentmere films use their own emulsions and their manufacturer Harman (who also manufactures Ilford films) has stated in the past that they will not re-brand any films that they produce and sell under either the Kentmere line or the Ilford line.
Harmann does do contract coating and manufacture though - contact them with your specifications for "Cholentpot Pan 400" and they will be happy to discuss with you the feasability of what you seek, and the cost to produce the few thousand rolls you want.

 

[FilmCurlCom]

Assuming that photographers actually buy it.

What about those who want to shoot Super 8 with Kodaks new camera (shall it ever actually be released)? That is what I am most interested in. We do have nice slide films for still cameras already, but nothing much is left for movie cameras!

 

[RattyMouse]

Ilford, Adox, Foma, Kentmere, Lucky, Arista, Agfa, Rollei, Lomo, Ferrania, IP. Wittner (though I don't know if they do stills) and Cinestill (though I don't know if you'd count that as a separate brand).

And for the record, I don't want my images scratched or mussed. The colors of Velvia or grain structure of Tri-X put them miles above digital IMHO.

Lemme know if I missed any brands. I'm going off the top of my head, and I'm just a youngun after all

Agfa.

 

[Berri]

Ilford, Adox, Foma, Kentmere, Lucky, Arista, Agfa, Rollei, Lomo, Ferrania, IP. Wittner (though I don't know if they do stills) and Cinestill (though I don't know if you'd count that as a separate brand).

And for the record, I don't want my images scratched or mussed. The colors of Velvia or grain structure of Tri-X put them miles above digital IMHO.

Lemme know if I missed any brands. I'm going off the top of my head, and I'm just a youngun after all

Sometimes old guys are really pretentious and believe that young people are all the same and none of them will ever be capable of the marvelous things that made those oldies age so well.