Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[mshchem]

Now back to Ferrania, these guys have moved mountains. Going to be a different path than what was originally planned, but Ferrania will do great things .

 

[Nzoomed]

VERY interesting! I've forwarded this to my partners in Italy.

Was just about to mention these guys to you!
Im also fairly sure ive seen vintage ferrania sound cartridges in the past. So it must have been available at some point.
As far as im aware the sound strip was glued onto the film during production, as far as Kodak went anyway and there were toxic solvents used in the glue which were banned so they stopped doing it in 1997.

Wittner-cinetec also stock magnetic sound stripe, so its obviously still available.
Im guessing its being slitted down from ferric oxide audio tape.

 

[Harry Callahan]

...
Wittner-cinetec also stock magnetic sound stripe, so its obviously still available.
...

I just searched their website and couldn´t find it. Would be surprised if someone still produced such stripes.

 

[Agulliver]

Was just about to mention these guys to you!
Im also fairly sure ive seen vintage ferrania sound cartridges in the past. So it must have been available at some point.
As far as im aware the sound strip was glued onto the film during production, as far as Kodak went anyway and there were toxic solvents used in the glue which were banned so they stopped doing it in 1997.

Wittner-cinetec also stock magnetic sound stripe, so its obviously still available.
Im guessing its being slitted down from ferric oxide audio tape.

I think PE has already stated that it was nothing to do with toxic solvents or environmental regulations.

Kodak's machines to produce sound striped film were worn out, and uneconomical to repair. That's what Kodak said at the time, and it fits the evidence. The machines were even around and people on movie shooting forums viewed them.

 

[Nzoomed]

I just searched their website and couldn´t find it. Would be surprised if someone still produced such stripes.

Was reading it on this post here, but i see its dated 2010
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001080

either way, as mentioned, these guys do it:
https://www.super8.tv/en/new-magnetic-sound-striping/

 

[Nzoomed]

I think PE has already stated that it was nothing to do with toxic solvents or environmental regulations.

Kodak's machines to produce sound striped film were worn out, and uneconomical to repair. That's what Kodak said at the time, and it fits the evidence. The machines were even around and people on movie shooting forums viewed them.

Oh well, thats interesting to know, becasue thats the story that has been going round for some years now...
When did they stop it on 16mm film? I know TV cameraman used this stuff for some years.

 

[Agulliver]

Oh well, thats interesting to know, becasue thats the story that has been going round for some years now...
When did they stop it on 16mm film? I know TV cameraman used this stuff for some years.

I was shooting small gauge cine film at the time Kodak stopped producing sound super 8 film. Agfa had already exited the market for super 8 about five years previously. The talk on the film shooting boards at the time was all about Kodak's striping machinery (I believe they had two still in operation) being worn out and them having real difficulty in getting striped film up to the quality expected. The machines needed new parts and overhauling, as they'd been in nigh on constant use for 20 years. They were just worn out...but super 8 sound film was a very small niche at the time and it wasn't viable to overhaul those machines. There was no talk of concern over the adhesive or any other chemicals...presumably they'd long since been approved and any safety measures put in place. Some people who posted to the film forums were even able to visit Kodak to see if it was viable to buy and run the machines themselves and they reported that sadly, they really were beyond economical use. And so sound film died.

I do not believe that TV news crews ever made much use of pre-striped 16mm film. There was Video News Film (Ektachrome VNF) which was low contrast 16mm reversal film designed to be scanned by telecine, with sound usually recorded separately on a Nagra or similar. I am not an expert but I know of no 16mm cameras with magnetic recording capability. There were the "Auricon" 16mm sound cameras of the 1930s which recorded optical sound live. But these would not have been used by TV news crews, nor did they use striped film.

It shouldn't be that difficult to produce magnetic stripe as there are still a few companies manufacturing magnetic recording tape. Accurately slitting it to the correct width would be the issue, otherwise to the very best of my knowledge super 8 stripe is simply regular ferric oxide tape not at all far removed from what you'd put through a cassette recorder or reel to reel machine.

 

[Nzoomed]

I was shooting small gauge cine film at the time Kodak stopped producing sound super 8 film. Agfa had already exited the market for super 8 about five years previously. The talk on the film shooting boards at the time was all about Kodak's striping machinery (I believe they had two still in operation) being worn out and them having real difficulty in getting striped film up to the quality expected. The machines needed new parts and overhauling, as they'd been in nigh on constant use for 20 years. They were just worn out...but super 8 sound film was a very small niche at the time and it wasn't viable to overhaul those machines. There was no talk of concern over the adhesive or any other chemicals...presumably they'd long since been approved and any safety measures put in place. Some people who posted to the film forums were even able to visit Kodak to see if it was viable to buy and run the machines themselves and they reported that sadly, they really were beyond economical use. And so sound film died.

I do not believe that TV news crews ever made much use of pre-striped 16mm film. There was Video News Film (Ektachrome VNF) which was low contrast 16mm reversal film designed to be scanned by telecine, with sound usually recorded separately on a Nagra or similar. I am not an expert but I know of no 16mm cameras with magnetic recording capability. There were the "Auricon" 16mm sound cameras of the 1930s which recorded optical sound live. But these would not have been used by TV news crews, nor did they use striped film.

It shouldn't be that difficult to produce magnetic stripe as there are still a few companies manufacturing magnetic recording tape. Accurately slitting it to the correct width would be the issue, otherwise to the very best of my knowledge super 8 stripe is simply regular ferric oxide tape not at all far removed from what you'd put through a cassette recorder or reel to reel machine.

Yes its Ektachrome VNF im thinking of. ive got some newsreels shot on it and its all magnetic striped, one of the cans has a check box on the lid for magnetic sound also.
Yes im assuming its basically ferric oxide magnetic tape glued onto the film itself, must be a very thin polyester base for that stuff.
I wonder if we could get NAC to slit the stuff down the right width in the future?

 

[Agulliver]

It seems I might be wrong, at least with regard to American news crews who did make use of striped 16mm film in magnetic Auricon and Auricon-inspired cameras in the 60s and 70s. The VNF film I've seen in the UK is all without stripe, the sound gathered on magnetic tape separately.

It's possible that someone is manufacturing stripe, as the guy in Italy is at least one business offering magnetic striping of films. Otherwise, one could approach any of the companies who actually manufacture tape. NAC are working on it but don't manufacture tape at present. The options would be ATR Magnetics, Recording The Masters (Pyral) and Splicit who contract out to the factory which used to produce Zonal tape.

 

[Diapositivo]

VERY interesting! I've forwarded this to my partners in Italy.

I hope I stay on topic.

I found the address of Vangelisti:
ONDA RADIO SERVICE S.R.L. (ATTENTION OF ALBERTO VANGELISTI)
Via Provinciale 35
40053 VALSAMOGGIA (BO)
ITALY
e.mail : moviemagnetic@gmail.com
tel.+39 339 3937360 (we speak only italian, so better to write in english or other languages on e.mail

He is in Bologna, not terribly far away from Ferrania HQ.

I also found this recent video by Felice Quacquarella, posted on August 4th, 2018.
He shows how he restores the junctions of a film and applies two magnetic stripes using a "pistatrice". I think this could be of interest to many here.



The audio is in Italian. I can give some explanation if anybody doesn't understand the operation.

 

[cmacd123]

I do not believe that TV news crews ever made much use of pre-striped 16mm film. There was Video News Film (Ektachrome VNF) which was low contrast 16mm reversal film designed to be scanned by telecine, with sound usually recorded separately on a Nagra or similar. I am not an expert but I know of no 16mm cameras with magnetic recording capability. There were the "Auricon" 16mm sound cameras of the 1930s which recorded optical sound live. But these would not have been used by TV news crews, nor did they use striped film..

Auricon made two systems, both usable in the same camera. Optical sound and the "Filmagnetic" the later did ues striped 16mm film and did so as more or less the standard of the industry, (along with the related Cinema Products 16, and many other Auricon derivitives) right up until portable video equipment caused a general migration away form News FILM cameras.

Walter Bach, the CEO of Auricon would sell their least expensive cameras to other firms who used the Patented Rock Steady transport mechanism to build special cameras JUST for TV news.

VNF while it was designed for broadcast use, also was designed to be relatively quick to process. "Film at 11" final demand for VNF was the automotive crash test folks, but they did not need sound.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Oh well, thats interesting to know, becasue thats the story that has been going round for some years now...
When did they stop it on 16mm film? I know TV cameraman used this stuff for some years.

I think it is a slight misquote of what I said. At least I hope I said it correctly. There is no mistake saying that the solvents are toxic, but the fact is that the equipment at EK has efficient scrubbers and clean the toxic solvents out of the air stream exiting the coating plant.

There have been complaints that toxic solvents did escape, but rigorous testing showed that this is not correct.

PE

 

[Nzoomed]

I think it is a slight misquote of what I said. At least I hope I said it correctly. There is no mistake saying that the solvents are toxic, but the fact is that the equipment at EK has efficient scrubbers and clean the toxic solvents out of the air stream exiting the coating plant.

There have been complaints that toxic solvents did escape, but rigorous testing showed that this is not correct.

PE

Do you know how the magnetic strip was put onto the film at Kodak? Was the ferric oxide coated directly onto the film, or was it a polyester base glued onto it?
Either way i imagine solvents would be used. From what i remember, was that some solvents were banned, I have no idea what ones or why substitutes could not be found, but im expecting solvents such as xylene and 1,1,1-trichloroethane were the ones that were making bad press.
They are all toxic, so dont know what the big problem was around them, but many things use solvents, especially paints and i dont see the same restrictions around them.

I read that chromium and metal audio tapes ceased production due to the solvents being banned, but i dont get what was different with those tapes to require different solvents than ferric oxide tape, and data tapes are still made of similar chemical composition.

I know this is getting off track here, but there seems to be some sort of crossover with magnetic tape and solvents that i have been reading about and it was not just Kodak.

 

[Harry Callahan]

Was reading it on this post here, but i see its dated 2010
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001080

either way, as mentioned, these guys do it:
https://www.super8.tv/en/new-magnetic-sound-striping/

That´s what i assumed. They once sold old orwo-tape, but Orwo is out of tape-production, surely for about 25 years now.
Super8.tv says they put some liquid soundtrack onto the film. The video diapositivo posted is contradictory as they glue an existing stripe onto film.

...
Yes im assuming its basically ferric oxide magnetic tape glued onto the film itself, must be a very thin polyester base for that stuff.
...

I always thought audio tape is on acetate base? This also would explain the concerns about toxic fumes exiting Kodak plants - because if you wet-splice cine film (and you only can wet splice acetate base not PET) you need a cement which is toxic. The same could be used to attach an acetate-sound-strip to an acetate-base-film.
In the end the sound stripe had to be able to withstand the chemicals during developement and someone must be able to produce S8-sound-cartridges.

 

[Agulliver]

I always thought audio tape is on acetate base? This also would explain the concerns about toxic fumes exiting Kodak plants - because if you wet-splice cine film (and you only can wet splice acetate base not PET) you need a cement which is toxic. The same could be used to attach an acetate-sound-strip to an acetate-base-film.
In the end the sound stripe had to be able to withstand the chemicals during developement and someone must be able to produce S8-sound-cartridges.

Acetate tape....in the 60s, yes. It's been polyester since then.

 

[cmacd123]

both audio tape and Film can be on an acetate or a polyester base. Both can be solvent coated, but it does take different solvents of course. the sound stripe has to be placed in a very thin line in two places on each strip of film. for raw stock this has to be done in the dark.

Note that I am given to understand that super 8 is all perforated as Double Super 8 and slit before packaging. one wpuld have to ensure the prsence of the sound track was not going to cause contamination of applied before the film was slit.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I know nothing about the magnetic striping, but I do know a bit about solvent coating having made quite a few of them. That is about all I can say in answer.

PE

 

[Europan]

I am not an expert but I know of no 16mm cameras with magnetic recording capability.

Yeah. You had/have a number of 16mm film COMMAG cameras:

• Berndt-Bach Auricon Pro-600 with FILMAGNETIC unit
  
• Auricon Super-1200, FILMAGNETIC
• Mitchell Single-System R-16
  
• Cinema Products 16
• Debrie SINMOR
  
• Arriflex 16 BL
  
• Bolex 16 Pro
• Beaulieu 16 News
• Fairchild Cinephonic 8; Double-Eight film

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Wow this thread has gone WAY off-topic - although I do find all of the discussion of Ektachrome, EK's downsizing/not-downsizing and sound-striped film quite fascinating.

Just a heads up, our next update is in draft form and being finalized. It's not earth-shattering news or anything, but perhaps it will help us get this thread back on-topic.

 

[fdonadio]

(...) but perhaps it will help us get this thread back on-topic.

Amen!

 

[cmacd123]

Amen!

Yep, Lets hear what is happening in the north of italy rather than south of Lake ontario!

 

[Prof_Pixel]

Wow this thread has gone WAY off-topic - although I do find all of the discussion of Ektachrome, EK's downsizing/not-downsizing and sound-striped film quite fascinating.

Just a heads up, our next update is in draft form and being finalized. It's not earth-shattering news or anything, but perhaps it will help us get this thread back on-topic.

Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Just a heads up, our next update is in draft form and being finalized. It's not earth-shattering news or anything, but perhaps it will help us get this thread back on-topic.

I refer you to my favorite bumper sticker among all those seen on other cars during a 33-year, 100 mile per day round trip commute: "You'll fee much better when you give up hope."

Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread.

Nah, that one would drift just as much as this and most others do.

 

[alentine]

Just a heads up, our next update is in draft form and being finalized. It's not earth-shattering news or anything, but perhaps it will help us get this thread back on-topic.

Thanks.

 

[BAC1967]

Update in my email today:

Update for August-September 2018
As we write this update, the LRF is a construction zone with contractors on-site changing the floorplan, moving and refurbishing equipment, and overhauling our coater room. In addition, three members of our team are also on-site preparing for continuous film production.

Overseeing all work is our co-founder Marco Pagni, who has taken complete control now that the government is done with the building upgrades.

Progress

3M built the LRF to be extremely stable, but also very flexible. The design of the building allows us to modify the floor plan as needed. Work is underway to define and outfit several new rooms that will house our 35mm, 120 and 127 converting lines.

Corrado Balestra and Luisa Tavella have returned, and we have also welcomed Antonio Poggi to the team! Like all of our factory staff, Antonio worked at the former Ferrania-3M factory, and his experience overlaps and complements the other two.

The trio is now working to finalize all of the chemical components for our P30 film. They have a new kind of gelatin that must be pre-treated and a number of refinements to our processes to test.

Cleanroom

During our Alpha production, waste was a huge problem, but the experience had value because it highlighted many micro-issues to address.

As we mentioned in the last update, we needed much better air filtration in our coater room. The filtering system is now fixed, but we have decided to take an additional step - we’re making the coater room into an actual cleanroom. We’re also installing an infrared camera that identifies and tracks all defects on every roll that comes out of the coater.

Having the coater in a cleanroom will drastically reduce the potential for defects. The new camera uses software to mark the exact position of any small defects that sneak through, allowing us to cut the film “around” the bad spots.

Status

Work did slow down a bit in late August because some contractors and even entire companies were out on holiday. But in general, everything is following the plan and these first couple of weeks of September have truly been chaotic, with workers swarming the building.

We have committed to ourselves, and so also to you, that when we restart production, it will not stop. This is our minimum viable status and it is 100% necessary to reach this milestone before we can restart the much more complicated color research and production.

Cheers,
The FILM Ferrania Team

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...-film/posts/2292963?ref=backer_project_update