Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[DaveTheWalker]

VERY interesting! I've forwarded this to my partners in Italy.

I thought so, too! Let us know what they say

 

[ME Super]

Yes, they can use shims. I've seen it done. It is not efficient though, as you can imagine. IIRC, the normal width of film must be used due to the machine construction (rollers and turn arounds). So, you gain some and lose some.

PE

I thought that might be the case with regards to shims, that they'd still need to run the full width film base through the machine. Thanks for the info though. You're the man

 

[cmacd123]

If the stripe were on the side opposite the gate in the projector, then a balance stripe would not be needed.
PE

On 16mm the mag stripe was on the base side of the film, and so I presume that would be the case in 8mm also. (I am not sure of I can find a movie I got from Blackhawk films one time where they used Sound stock to print a silent movie - If I can find that I could confirm)

the balance stripe is needed when one is winding a large roll of film. other wise the Sound edge winds with a larger Diameter than the other edge. the narrow balance stripe keeps both sides winding with the same diameter. You MIGHT get away with a 50 ft roll, but over 300 ft the film would want to cup.

 

[Harry Callahan]

The film wouldn’t sit flush against the gate, your picture would be partially out of focus. The only way to fix that would be a balance stripe on the other side, that’s what they did with commercial Super 8 films. Some commercial Super 8 films had a magnetic stripe as the balance for stereo sound.

The sound stripes are on the base-side of the film. If they were on the emulsion-side the film wouldn´t be able to make contact to the gate any more and the picture would be out of focus even if there was a balance stripe. I was wondering if pre-striped film would run through a silent S8-cartridge at all, because the film has to follow a very complex path through the cartridge which is why they sometimes jam. But as Agulliver said there were pre-striped silent cartridges, the question would be whether those cartridges were different from the normal silent-cartridges (internally) .
I still think its likely that the sound stripes which were glued after developement were different from those added before exposure. There is acid in the developing bath of reversal developement for example. Maybe sound stripes added before exposure cannot be glued but have to be sprayed onto the film.

A speculative thought about how a high-production machine might fit into a low-demand world: What if they were able to reformulate their films so they have longer shelf life? That would go a long way toward mitigating the problem of matching high production machines to a low-demand world. This strategy (even if it is technically feasible) would, of course, require investment in a large storage facility to dribble out the manufactured product as demanded by the market.

By the way, a few years ago I posted a comment that a Kodak employee had told me that film production had ceased at Kodak. I was roundly booed here at APUG (now PHOTRIO) for posting that comment. In retrospect, the Kodak employee was probably right. Kodak had probably shut down their production of new film for a time and just relied on stored film to sell product for a while.

The problem would be that the employees were to work like two weeks a year and then sit around and do nothing. Furthermore some machines need to be run regularly. If you let them stand still for months or even longer you need to overhaul them before you run them again. Ferrania also was facing the problem that their coater had stood still for several years and they needed to service it before the first run otherwise it would have been damaged.
Downsizing output but producing regularly would be more economical/reasonable.

 

[Harry Callahan]

Yes, they can use shims. I've seen it done. It is not efficient though, as you can imagine. IIRC, the normal width of film must be used due to the machine construction (rollers and turn arounds). So, you gain some and lose some.

If you convert from curtain to slide coating you might get down to about 300 m/m, but you would have to totally reformulate. The viscosity of each layer would have to change depending on speed and hopper type. Probably the same would be true if using shims.

PE

Maybe one could swap the rollers to rollers being smaller in width or put some limiting on the rollers to make the machine accept smaller base material. Of course a lot of rollers would be needed to swapped or limited, at least one would not have to built an entirely new machine and could keep the coating speed.

 

[Agulliver]

As I understand it, none of us here actually knows for sure exactly what Kodak has done.....but Kodak people have stated that they're able to make smaller runs of each film....which was an objective achieved during the research and development of the new Ektachrome....and as stated by Kodak a result of whatever this "downsizing" is, was the ability to re-introduce P3200.

What they actually did, and what building it might be in, we don't know. But Kodak has made it clear that they are able to produce smaller batches of film which makes Ektachrome and P3200 viable when they previously were not.

Contrast with Fuji, who as far as we know are stuck with large production runs and having to axe film products because they can't sell each lot fast enough.

Contrast with Film Ferrania who always intended to restart production with the ability to be quite flexible regarding quantities produced and certainly with the ability to produce smaller batches than Kodak or Fuji. This method probably suits today's market and that of the future better than Fuji's.

 

[Agulliver]

You are incorrect. There are several here (ex Kodak folks) who know exactly what can and could be done to building 38. It's in this thread, should you choose to read it.

Anyone can say anything on a podcast. The proof is in the engineering.

Exactly....ex Kodak folks....not a single one of whom is privy to whatever it is Kodak has done in the last 18 months.

The truth is none of us actually knows, we can only speculate.

The facts are that Kodak has stated that in order to produce the new Ektachrome they figured out a way to make smaller production runs.....they then added that this would allow them to bring back P3200......P3200 has appeared on the shelves, and Ekatchrome is now in the hands of photographers who are doing the final beta tests.

It all kind of points to Kodak having done *something* to produce smaller batches of film.

 

[Agulliver]

What do you mean the two are not connected?

Kodak stated that they needed to be able to make smaller batches/runs in order to make Ektachrome, and that this also made the reintroduction of P3200 viable when previously it was not viable. P3200 has reached the shelves and Ektachrome is out there being beta testsd.

What more do you need?

People believe in gods with far less "proof".

The one simple fact is that nobody here actually knows what Kodak have been up to in the last 18 months or so.

 

[MattKing]

FWIW, PE has posted numerous times about how much informal communication occurs between those who currently work making Kodak film, and those retired Kodak staff that remain in Rochester.
It is pretty clear from his and Prof Pixel's posts that their community - both those who are currently employed and the many more who are retired - are not estranged from each other.
I'm sure many details are not shared, and I am also sure that the retired employees consider themselves still bound by their NDAs, but none of that means that "nobody here actually knows what Kodak have been up to in the last 18 months or so."

 

[faberryman]

The one simple fact is that nobody here actually knows what Kodak have been up to in the last 18 months or so.

P3200 and Ektachrome are all well and good, but let's hope they have been working out a way to come up with the $400M cash they are going to need to buy back the preferred stock next year.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Downsizing can mean many things. At one time, 3 crews made color film 24/7/365 but now one crew could work 8 hours 5 days / week. The one crew can make emulsions and dispersions and then coat. They can reduce coating speed. In any event, the production is just marginal, hovering at the "loss" point on the profit margin scale, but not as much as it would have if none of this had been done.

As for contacts, I have lunch with some of my friends and they do visit the plant from time to time. We also stay in touch albeit more infrequently. In fact, a few of us have even visited the plant and KRL.

PE

 

[Truzi]

Perhaps there are a number of small things that can be done that effectively combine to a significant overall "downsizing." Downsizing can mean things other than the coating machine itself (as PE points out).
I really don't know what I'm talking about, but since we're speculating...

Just for fun, is it possible that the volume of emulsion had a minimum for certain applications, and that it can be "re-formulated" to allow for similar qualities and properties at smaller volumes? Would that count?

 

[markjwyatt]

Exactly....ex Kodak folks....not a single one of whom is privy to whatever it is Kodak has done in the last 18 months...

How do you know? Don't you ever contact your colleagues at your old jobs?

 

[markjwyatt]

If you go from 7/24 running at 1500 meters/min. to 5/8 at 300 meters/minute you just cut production to 5% of max. capacity. If you run one 5/8 shift, 3 days prep and shutdown, 2 days running (300 meters/min.) that is 2%. If you can run shorter widths (deckling, smaller dies, etc.), cut down by that proportion. How many products are they running on the line? Divide by that number for an initial estimate. I could easily see them at 0.25-0.5% of full capacity.

 

[cmacd123]

Perhaps with tweaking the "on the fly splicers" they can run 3000ft of actual film, while running mostly blank and posibly reuseable leader to fill the big tunnel. they probably still have some very smart people on staff. (Kodak was always considered one of the best employers in the southern Lake Ontario area.)

We don't know. They claim that they can make smaller batches. I would rather take that claim at face value, if we see product in the stores.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well, we like to consider ourselves as Western New Yorkers, or perhaps Niagara Frontier-ers....

However, to answer you all, if they were so smart, why are they in this predicament? Answer me that??

As for the rest of the answers, to scale emulsions down say from 1000L to 500L you need to go from a 1000L kettle to a 500L kettle. Just an example, but the emulsion scale up is hard enough, scaling down is a cast iron B***H! Don't be so pleased with yourself over glib answers. BTDT. It ain't easy and my hat goes off with kudos to boot for the guys who re-made Ektachrome.

PE

 

[cmacd123]

As for the rest of the answers, to scale emulsions down say from 1000L to 500L you need to go from a 1000L kettle to a 500L kettle. Just an example, but the emulsion scale up is hard enough, scaling down is a cast iron B***H! Don't be so pleased with yourself over glib answers. BTDT. It ain't easy and my hat goes of with kudos to boot for the guys who re-made Ektachrome.

I was figuring that some sort of Magic was involved Yes, even home cooking recipes don't scale well. but one would guess the lab coating does not make a full sized batch so there may be some Magic formulas to scale at least some of the secret formulas?

As I say, I really DON'T know. however if they say they can scale down, the marketing folks have either taken over, or some Phd Engineer has said "I wonder what happens if...."

 

[MattKing]

The other really important factor to consider is how issues of manufacturing efficiency have morphed as the market have changed.
Building 38 was converted into the only manufacturing source when there was intense competition in the retail market, and a robust distribution market was both in place and efficient.
Building 38's efficiency and shear production capacity was critical to making good profits in that market.
In its heyday, if you reduced the efficiency of building 38's production by downsizing the runs, it might very well have switched from being profitable to being a money loser. If the downsizing meant a 50 cent per roll (as an example) increase in manufacturing cost, that might very well have mandated a product cancellation.
Now, the market is very different and difficult.
But part of that market change means retail prices are higher, and distribution costs are way, way higher.
So whereas a 50 cent per roll increase (as an example) in manufacturing cost might once have mandated product cancellation, it might now be a drop in the bucket compared to the now much higher distribution costs.
While PE's (and others') experience in the manufacturing part of the process is both deep and knowledgeable, I don't think he has ever had to struggle with the massive relatively recent changes in the marketing part of the equation.
IIRC in the 1970s when I worked in a small camera store/Kodak dealer, my boss needed to order only $400.00 in Kodak Canada product to obtain, directly from Kodak Canada, the lowest possible wholesale price along with free and temperature monitored/controlled, prompt delivery. The per roll costs inherent in that efficient distribution system were tiny!
And the stuff available in that huge catalogue/list of products available to all retail dealers? Wonderful!

 

[Photo Engineer]

What operation is worth preserving if it is running at 0.25% capacity? My god, my current and previous companies would go into a 5 alarm fire drill if capacity ever slipped below 90%. The owners would not stand for that for even one quarter.

What are the factory workers going to do for the 99.75% the factory is down?

Well, they are running one shift instead of 3 and they are running 1 machine instead of the many they had before, and they are running slower, but the factory is not "down". There are, of course, fewer employees. So you seem to be painting with a very broad brush.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

I was figuring that some sort of Magic was involved Yes, even home cooking recipes don't scale well. but one would guess the lab coating does not make a full sized batch so there may be some Magic formulas to scale at least some of the secret formulas?

As I say, I really DON'T know. however if they say they can scale down, the marketing folks have either taken over, or some Phd Engineer has said "I wonder what happens if...."

I have said before that for 15 years of my work there, I specialized in scaling emulsion formulas UP. They didn't work too much on going down as it was only done to troubleshoot problems in the plant. I must add, and state again, that I never worked in the plant in production, but did work with them on pilot scale products and emulsions.

There are formulas, and I have stated that before. Quite a bit of modeling was done to get this worked out.

PE

 

[alanrockwood]

I have said before that for 15 years of my work there, I specialized in scaling emulsion formulas UP. They didn't work too much on going down as it was only done to troubleshoot problems in the plant. I must add, and state again, that I never worked in the plant in production, but did work with them on pilot scale products and emulsions.

There are formulas, and I have stated that before. Quite a bit of modeling was done to get this worked out.

PE

PE, can't you just take the scale-up formulas and multiply everything by minus one for a scale down? (Just joking of course.)

 

[Sean]

I've tried to steer this back on topic, we've had to ban one account for repeated offences..

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Uh oh... I think I know who it was...

 

[Photo Engineer]

PE, can't you just take the scale-up formulas and multiply everything by minus one for a scale down? (Just joking of course.)

Alan, IIRC, the formula for the mixer speed is a complex quadratic equation! Does that help? I'm not joking of course.

PE

 

[mshchem]

I'm doing my part. I'm burning through a bunch of Fujichrome Provia-F to get into practice. We are doing 10-12 days in South Dakota, on into Wyoming through Teton and Yellowstone parks. I brought 10 rolls and a F5, set up to auto bracket 0.3 EV. I have a D800 ,but I'm trying to stay with slides. I want to start shooting more slides for projection. I'm saving a bunch of 120 for my Hasselblad for fall colors.

Saving some economic disaster, I'm thinking Ektachrome will be back, and it will be outstanding. What Kodak Rochester does everyday now, is nothing short of miraculous.
The current crop of Kodak films are better than ever. When it's ready it will be back.
Best Mike