Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Rudeofus · Aug 29, 2018

When Kodak Alaris took over film marketing and had its first presence here on photrio (APUG back then), there was some mentioning of Kodak's research coater to be used for smaller batches. Since P3200 is anything but a mainstream film and with its high sensitivity can not be stored for all that long, I wouldn't be surprised one bit if it was coated on that research coating machine. Since that machine plus surrounding infrastructure was already in place, no multi million dollar expenditures would have had to be made.

lantau · Aug 29, 2018

In the case of Ektachrome it sounded to me that the downsizing was in the production of the emulsion. B38 will still coast whatever is the minimum, but if your emulsion batch requires the coating line to make 5x or whatever the minimum coating length that will be a problem for minor products.

Harry Callahan · Aug 30, 2018

Agulliver said:
A shame, but 100% the answer I expected when I saw the question.

The last people in any position to make super 8 sound film were Kodak, who ceased circa 1997 because their 25 year old equipment was knackered and needed repairs which could not be justified by the small amount of sound film being sold.

While I'd love to shoot super 8 sound again, I'm resigned to silent. I do have a strong preference for reversal, so am patiently awaiting Ektahcrome and the new Ferrania film. I have realistic expectations on price, so I won't be buying it by the brick...but I will be buying it.

I think one of the problems is that there is no manufacturer left who can produce the magnetic strip which is needed for sound film. I know there still are producers of audio-tapes around, but the strip for the S8-film needed to be special i think.

cmacd123 · Aug 30, 2018

Harry Callahan said:
I think one of the problems is that there is no manufacturer left who can produce the magnetic strip which is needed for sound film. I know there still are producers of audio-tapes around, but the strip for the S8-film needed to be special i think.

I had heard, but don't know the truth that Kodak's method was to just apply a liquid mixture and then recover the solvents as it hardened. (all in the dark of course) and that they would have needed to do some serious upgrades to meet emission requirements. the other method is to make a VERY THIN magnetic strip and Glue that onto the finished film, again in the dark. the strip needs to be accompanied by a very narrow "Balance Stripe" to keep the roll winding smoothly.

I doubt if Ferrania ever made mag stripe film. so they would not have the technology, even if they did - that would have been the speciality of the Audio tape department of 3M, who exited audio tape even before Imation was spun off.

DaveTheWalker · Aug 30, 2018

Coincidentally, I stumbled across this service recently:

https://www.super8.tv/en/new-magnetic-sound-striping/

I wonder how far from the Ferrania factory this chap is, and whether they could set something up between them??

cmacd123 said:
I had heard, but don't know the truth that Kodak's method was to just apply a liquid mixture and then recover the solvents as it hardened. (all in the dark of course) and that they would have needed to do some serious upgrades to meet emission requirements. the other method is to make a VERY THIN magnetic strip and Glue that onto the finished film, again in the dark. the strip needs to be accompanied by a very narrow "Balance Stripe" to keep the roll winding smoothly.

I doubt if Ferrania ever made mag stripe film. so they would not have the technology, even if they did - that would have been the speciality of the Audio tape department of 3M, who exited audio tape even before Imation was spun off.

BAC1967 · Aug 30, 2018

You can buy a used mag striping machine, they come up on eBay every now and then, and try to do it yourself after the film is processed. The hard part is getting the magnetic strip and the proper glue. I have seen where some people made a go at it with some success.

Photo Engineer · Aug 30, 2018

cmacd123 said:
I had heard, but don't know the truth that Kodak's method was to just apply a liquid mixture and then recover the solvents as it hardened. (all in the dark of course) and that they would have needed to do some serious upgrades to meet emission requirements. the other method is to make a VERY THIN magnetic strip and Glue that onto the finished film, again in the dark. the strip needs to be accompanied by a very narrow "Balance Stripe" to keep the roll winding smoothly.

I doubt if Ferrania ever made mag stripe film. so they would not have the technology, even if they did - that would have been the speciality of the Audio tape department of 3M, who exited audio tape even before Imation was spun off.

The emission codes for solvent coatings were met years ago by EK. They had active scrubbers and fire prevention equipment on all solvent coaters and even scrubbed aqueous coatings for other than water.

PE

cmacd123 · Aug 30, 2018

DaveTheWalker said:
Coincidentally, I stumbled across this service recently:

https://www.super8.tv/en/new-magnetic-sound-striping/

I wonder how far from the Ferrania factory this chap is, and whether they could set something up between them??

Does not look like he is set up to do it in the dark. Also the sound Super 8 cartridges were a whole other design than the silent ones so the investment would be huge to make pre-striped film.

cmacd123 · Aug 30, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
The emission codes for solvent coatings were met years ago by EK. They had active scrubbers and fire prevention equipment on all solvent coaters and even scrubbed aqueous coatings for other than water.
PE

I am sure that they kept up! perhaps it was just that the maintenance needed did not justify the continuing based on the very small sales that item must have generated.

markjwyatt · Aug 30, 2018

DaveTheWalker said:
Coincidentally, I stumbled across this service recently:

https://www.super8.tv/en/new-magnetic-sound-striping/

I wonder how far from the Ferrania factory this chap is, and whether they could set something up between them??

Interestingly, ADOX is a sponsoring member (as well as Kodak)...

DaveTheWalker · Aug 30, 2018

markjwyatt said:
Interestingly, ADOX is a sponsoring member (as well as Kodak)...

That's for the Super 8 portal, not the sound striping

markjwyatt · Aug 30, 2018

DaveTheWalker said:
That's for the Super 8 portal, not the sound striping

Ah. Those details! Thanks.

Harry Callahan · Aug 30, 2018

I don´t know how Kodak did apply the sound stripe, whether they glued some magnetic tape or if they used a liquid mix - in the end i guess it may be harder to stripe non-developed film as the sound stripe also must be able to withstand the developing-chemicals. I assume that Alberto Vangelisti from Italy has jets in his machine which apply the liquid onto the film and that he probably could run his machine in the dark (no hassle with 0.7mm and 0.45mm wide magnetic stripes), but the question would be whether his sound stripes could withstand the chemicals during delevopement. And of course Ferrania needed someone to manufacture S8-sound-cartridges.
The only thing they *could* do was to pre-stripe film and put that into silent-cartridges (well, if pre-striped film would run through a silent-S8-cartridge without problems, who knows) so the user receives film allready having a sound stripe he can record onto after developement. Fuji once did put pre-striped film into their Single8-silent-cartridges. But with such a combination one of course cannot record sound during shooting.

Photo Engineer · Aug 30, 2018

cmacd123 said:
I am sure that they kept up! perhaps it was just that the maintenance needed did not justify the continuing based on the very small sales that item must have generated.

This is ongoing, as many solvents are used in coatings and must be reclaimed. Many chemicals vaporize during drying and so must be removed and recycled.

PE

Photo Engineer · Aug 30, 2018

I think what is missed here is that no matter how slow they run the coating machine, the minimum they can coat is about 5000 ft. If they were to coat less, a smaller machine would have to be built. The only thing they can do is run the machine slower. They can coat about 5000 ft in one minute!!!!! So, think on that!!!!

PE

BAC1967 · Aug 30, 2018

Harry Callahan said:
The only thing they *could* do was to pre-stripe film and put that into silent-cartridges (well, if pre-striped film would run through a silent-S8-cartridge without problems, who knows) so the user receives film allready having a sound stripe he can record onto after developement. Fuji once did put pre-striped film into their Single8-silent-cartridges. But with such a combination one of course cannot record sound during shooting.

The film wouldn’t sit flush against the gate, your picture would be partially out of focus. The only way to fix that would be a balance stripe on the other side, that’s what they did with commercial Super 8 films. Some commercial Super 8 films had a magnetic stripe as the balance for stereo sound.

Photo Engineer · Aug 30, 2018

If the stripe were on the side opposite the gate in the projector, then a balance stripe would not be needed.

PE

ME Super · Aug 30, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
I think what is missed here is that no matter how slow they run the coating machine, the minimum they can coat is about 5000 ft. If they were to coat less, a smaller machine would have to be built. The only thing they can do is run the machine slower. They can coat about 5000 ft in one minute!!!!! So, think on that!!!!

PE

PE, I was thinking that someone with inside knowledge of EK's building 38 (maybe it was you) said that they could control batch size to some degree by controlling the width of emulsion coated. So instead of a 48" coating of Ektachrome, they could do a 24" coating instead (for example). They'd still have to deal with the 5000 feet for a minimum length, but make the batch size 50% of a full width batch.

It's possible I'm not remembering this right, but I could've sworn you or someone else on here said that EK could do this.

Ah, here it is, I found it. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-reintroduces-ektachrome.143089/page-57#post-2085709 So maybe EK is also controlling batch size by controlling the width of the coating using the shims mentioned in the linked post? Inquiring minds want to know, and you are the man with the knowledge!

alanrockwood · Aug 31, 2018

A speculative thought about how a high-production machine might fit into a low-demand world: What if they were able to reformulate their films so they have longer shelf life? That would go a long way toward mitigating the problem of matching high production machines to a low-demand world. This strategy (even if it is technically feasible) would, of course, require investment in a large storage facility to dribble out the manufactured product as demanded by the market.

By the way, a few years ago I posted a comment that a Kodak employee had told me that film production had ceased at Kodak. I was roundly booed here at APUG (now PHOTRIO) for posting that comment. In retrospect, the Kodak employee was probably right. Kodak had probably shut down their production of new film for a time and just relied on stored film to sell product for a while.

MattKing · Aug 31, 2018

alanrockwood said:
By the way, a few years ago I posted a comment that a Kodak employee had told me that film production had ceased at Kodak. I was roundly booed here at APUG (now PHOTRIO) for posting that comment. In retrospect, the Kodak employee was probably right. Kodak had probably shut down their production of new film for a time and just relied on stored film to sell product for a while.

They certainly never stopped production of motion picture film.
But it may be that runs of some of the lower volume products are now spaced much farther apart.

Agulliver · Aug 31, 2018

Fe2O3 magnetic recording tape is still being manufactured for cassettes and reel to reel machines, therefore in sizes from 1/8 inch up to two inch width. Currently the market for 1/4 inch reel to reel tape is expanding with three top quality manufacturers. However, I don't know if any could manufacture the exact specifications of the super 8 sound magnetic stripe. It's likely a *very* small market.

I was using sound film when Kodak axed it circa 1997, and the reason quite simply was because the machinery to produce it was roughly 25 years old and had been heavily used. It needed overhaul or replacement, and while super 8 was surviving very few shooters were using sound film. It wasn't viable to overhaul or replace the machines. From what I remember Kodak saying at the time, the striping had become unreliable and they were having to dump a percentage of the film because the machines just weren't up to spec any more.

A chap by the name of Martin Baumgartner, who was/is known for selling unusual cine film formats was looking into producing super 8 sound film in his small business by utilising night vision goggles. The issue is, everything has to be done in the dark. The striping machines produced for amateurs were for adding stripe to silent film after it had been shot and developed, for the purpose of adding a sound track later. Mr. Baumgartner never got his film into production, so it cannot be easy.

Kodak did indeed sell striped film in silent cartridges, "Kodachrome 40 PS" (Pre-Striped). The idea was that you'd shoot in a silent camera, then add your soundtrack later....all super 8 sound projectors have at least basic recording capabilities and some have stereo mixers on board with voice on voice recording etc. I was just getting into the super 8 game when the last of this stock was being sold off in the mid 80s.

The stripe and adhesive used to stick it to the film always survived the chemical processing, be it E6 or K14. It is true that the super 8 sound cartridge is very different to the silent cartridge, and it's entirely possible that Kodak no longer have the facility to manufacture them. The cartridge is deeper with an orifice at the bottom which the film runs through, allowing access to the camera's pinch roller, capstan and recording head. Sound quality is far from bad, but easily beaten by any half way decent camcorder and probably mobile phones today.

alanrockwood · Aug 31, 2018

MattKing said:
They certainly never stopped production of motion picture film.
But it may be that runs of some of the lower volume products are now spaced much farther apart.

Good point.

markjwyatt · Aug 31, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
I think what is missed here is that no matter how slow they run the coating machine, the minimum they can coat is about 5000 ft. If they were to coat less, a smaller machine would have to be built. The only thing they can do is run the machine slower. They can coat about 5000 ft in one minute!!!!! So, think on that!!!!

PE

1500 meters/minute? Pretty fast. What is the slowest that could be practically coated? 50-100 meters/minute? May be hard to keep a curtain stable at low speeds.Machines designed to operate at high speeds often have issues at low speeds; though I suppose the machine could be recalibrated.

Photo Engineer · Aug 31, 2018

ME Super said:
PE, I was thinking that someone with inside knowledge of EK's building 38 (maybe it was you) said that they could control batch size to some degree by controlling the width of emulsion coated. So instead of a 48" coating of Ektachrome, they could do a 24" coating instead (for example). They'd still have to deal with the 5000 feet for a minimum length, but make the batch size 50% of a full width batch.

It's possible I'm not remembering this right, but I could've sworn you or someone else on here said that EK could do this.

Ah, here it is, I found it. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-reintroduces-ektachrome.143089/page-57#post-2085709 So maybe EK is also controlling batch size by controlling the width of the coating using the shims mentioned in the linked post? Inquiring minds want to know, and you are the man with the knowledge!

Yes, they can use shims. I've seen it done. It is not efficient though, as you can imagine. IIRC, the normal width of film must be used due to the machine construction (rollers and turn arounds). So, you gain some and lose some.

If you convert from curtain to slide coating you might get down to about 300 m/m, but you would have to totally reformulate. The viscosity of each layer would have to change depending on speed and hopper type. Probably the same would be true if using shims.

PE

FILM Ferrania · Aug 31, 2018

DaveTheWalker said:
Coincidentally, I stumbled across this service recently:

https://www.super8.tv/en/new-magnetic-sound-striping/

I wonder how far from the Ferrania factory this chap is, and whether they could set something up between them??

VERY interesting! I've forwarded this to my partners in Italy.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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