Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[Berri]

Adox is going to take 6-9 months (starting to look more like a year) just to transfer production of an existing B&W emulsion to another active machine that didn't spend 10 years in mothballs.

People, take a pill or something.

You are totally right, and this is exactly what I'm blaming Ferrania for. Because they've never been realistic with their time table.making a new film is something that might take years even if you are an already active film manufacturing factory. Ferrania made it sound like it was a matter of a few months before we'd seen a new colour reversal film produced in an abandoned building. As I said many times before, I'm confidential they will produce a colour reversal film but at the present time I am not sure what kind of market they are hoping to get; when this whole Ferrania project started we felt like we were in need of a new colour reversal film because Fuji chromes were uncertain, and Kodak discontinued Ektachrome. Five years later we still have CT precisa, a cheap reversal film, fujicolor velvia and provia are still there and Kodak is bringing back Ektachrome.
All we have today from Ferrania is (yet) another black and white film.

 

[railwayman3]

The kickstarter funds were EXPLICITLY for the purpose of purchasing various machines, moving them from buildings which were being demolished, and reinstalling them in the LRF.

The funds were used for just that purpose.

This seems beyond the understanding of a lot of people here. I honestly wonder how you operate a box camera...and assume you dictate your posts to someone with enough brain cells to type.

Really people how many times do you have to be told what the money was for?

Seriously thinking of just giving up on APUG due to the utter idiocy on this thread.

Looking back at the original Kickstarter offer, it did indicate that the funds were primarilly for the rescue of various machines. OTOH, a few quotes from the offer:-

"The Budget:- If we are successful, the money is targeted to two specific tasks
1. Purchase and removal of Trixie, Walter & Big Boy - 75%
2. Expenses for packing and shipping the rewards - 25%

"We already have everything we need to make the film!"

"The first stages of film production are already underway. "

"The reward levels are priced to allow us to create this batch, ship it to you, and have enough left over to purchase the remaining machinery that is most crucial to our long-term success"

"The only risk is not reaching our goal. Upon success, your risk practically vanishes. Testing is already underway at our mini-factory and we WILL (their emphasis) produce one limited-size film batch on the schedule shown above (April 2015). We have all of the materials we need, and we have given ourselves ample time to get it right."

Berri is right.....it is now apparent that Ferrania have never been realistic with their timetable....from Day 1. This is why people are justifiably frustrated and disappointed.

 

[ericdan]

Why are there so many medium speed aka 80-100 iso B&W films? and why add yet one more?
Especially in 35mm I just can't believe that that's the most popular speed.
Wouldn't 400 be a better choice if you release in 35mm ?

 

[mshchem]

HOPE , THAT'S WHAT I HAVE FOR FERRANIA ! WHY WOULD ANYONE WHO LOVES FILM THINK ANY OTHER WAY ? The Italian people create so many beautiful products . Coating and selling film is monumental , each meter is pushing back the potential extinction of one of the world's great photographic companies .
Mike

 

[Photo Engineer]

Why are there so many medium speed aka 80-100 iso B&W films? and why add yet one more?
Especially in 35mm I just can't believe that that's the most popular speed.
Wouldn't 400 be a better choice if you release in 35mm ?

Because, an ISO 80 - 100 film is far easier to produce!

 

[Cholentpot]

Because, an ISO 80 - 100 film is far easier to produce!

Can you explain in layman's terms why? I'm just curios.

 

[ericdan]

Because, an ISO 80 - 100 film is far easier to produce!

great reason for all the companies to put out more B&W film that we don't need.

 

[DaveTheWalker]

There's a new interview with Nicola and Marco here:

https://www.yourpictureditor.com/blog/2017/06/13/film-ferrania/

 

[Nzoomed]

great reason for all the companies to put out more B&W film that we don't need.

Except p30 is a unique B&W film that already is giving good feedback from the alpha shooters.

 

[railwayman3]

HOPE , THAT'S WHAT I HAVE FOR FERRANIA ! WHY WOULD ANYONE WHO LOVES FILM THINK ANY OTHER WAY ? The Italian people create so many beautiful products . Coating and selling film is monumental , each meter is pushing back the potential extinction of one of the world's great photographic companies .
Mike

Indeed....we analog and film lovers definitely hope that Ferrania will succeed, what else can we do, and why should we not. OTOH, hope, on its own, doesn't make profit or build a sustainable ongoing business, for the reasons I have set out several times. Business acumen is needed, together with realistic and attainable targets, and I really now can't find this in the Ferrania scenario.

 

[darkroom_rookie]

Except p30 is a unique B&W film that already is giving good feedback from the alpha shooters.

Slightly OT: Efke 50 was also a unique film - until you decided on 8x10 format. I've had so much headache seeing all the blotches clearly visible in larger homogenous-tone areas - on film developed in a Jobo 3004 for a client. He switched to Foma 200 - as Ilford costs an arm and a leg. No blotches. Hopefully Ferrania coats p30 on large format without blotches AND without excessive price.

 

[Diapositivo]

It's taken 4 years to produce a B&W film, the delays being largely due to unexpected problems, mostly unforseeable, and underatndably beyond Ferrania's best efforts.
[...]

The kickstarter fundraising was launched, if it is correct, at the end of 2014. If we count the effort to make B&W film to begin at beginning 2015 (including all the administrative work which is, in itself, a daunting work) considering that the B&W "alpha" film appeared somewhere in the second quarter of 2017 we have 2 1/4 years to produce B&W film, not 4 years.

 

[Diapositivo]

Ferrania made it sound like it was a matter of a few months before we'd seen a new colour reversal film produced in an abandoned building. As I said many times before, I'm confidential they will produce a colour reversal film but at the present time I am not sure what kind of market they are hoping to get; when this whole Ferrania project started we felt like we were in need of a new colour reversal film because Fuji chromes were uncertain, and Kodak discontinued Ektachrome. Five years later we still have CT precisa, a cheap reversal film, fujicolor velvia and provia are still there and Kodak is bringing back Ektachrome.
All we have today from Ferrania is (yet) another black and white film.

(bold is mine)
Again, as for my previous post, the question is: where do you count the duration of the effort from?
Why saying "five years later"?

 

[railwayman3]

"The only risk is not reaching our goal. Upon success, your risk practically vanishes. Testing is already underway at our mini-factory and we WILL (their emphasis) produce one limited-size film batch on the schedule shown above (i.e. April 2015). We have all of the materials we need, and we have given ourselves ample time to get it right."
"We already have everything we need to make the film!"
"The first stages of film production are already underway. "

^^^Ferrania's own quotes, again, verbatim, from the Kickstarter Prospectus. (And that, of course, was E6 colour, not B&W) Over-optimistic, at best.....? Just saying.....

 

[railwayman3]

(bold is mine)
Again, as for my previous post, the question is: where do you count the duration of the effort from?
Why saying "five years later"?

If you wish to be so pedantic, I quote again from the the Kickstarter Prospectus:-

"In 2012 our founders, Nicola and Marco, knocked on the factory door and FILM Ferrania, named in homage to the original 1923 company, was born."

"We have set up our new operations in the former Ferrania Research & Development (Dead Link Removed) building, which contains a miniature film production line. Our team has been working for more than a year to refurbish and re-engineer this building to prepare it to start. We can make film from this facility, but only a small amount - at a high cost."

OTOH, all that really matters the fact is we're well into 2017, and the film market, particularly for E6, has changed significantly since 2012 when the project was conceived. Is the original project still viable?.....I really hope so, but my own business training and experience keeps ringing alarm bells for them. IDK?

 

[Diapositivo]

If you wish to be so pedantic, I quote again from the the Kickstarter Prospectus:-

"In 2012 our founders, Nicola and Marco, knocked on the factory door and FILM Ferrania, named in homage to the original 1923 company, was born."

"We have set up our new operations in the former Ferrania Research & Development (Dead Link Removed) building, which contains a miniature film production line. Our team has been working for more than a year to refurbish and re-engineer this building to prepare it to start. We can make film from this facility, but only a small amount - at a high cost."

OTOH, all that really matters the fact is we're well into 2017, and the film market, particularly for E6, has changed significantly since 2012 when the project was conceived. Is the original project still viable?.....I really hope so, but my own business training and experience keeps ringing alarm bells for them. IDK?

In 2012 Nicola and Marco, as the article explained, were just looking for splitters for their Bulgarian endeavour, they knocked on Ferrania's doors because they wanted to buy slitters. The kickstarter money collection begun at the end of 2014. That is, at most, the date at which your clock can begin ticking.

Honest criticism is OK but certainly you are making the devil worse than he is.
The project is late and that is due to some factors which are often not accounted nor accountable for. This is a very complicated project and is, in a sense, "unprecedented" and delays are to be considered not a tragedy.

See it this way: maybe if they had foreseen all the difficulties at the beginning of the project they wouldn't have even tried. Maybe they were too optimistic, but that's in a sense a luck for the project. A new project is successful not because all difficulties were foreseen (that wouldn't be a new endeavour) but because difficulties are solved when they emerge.

I believe that Ferrania is and was in good faith at any moment they gave some dates, and this good faith is the metre whereby I judge the correctness of their attitude.

The main point I want to make is that whatever "deadline" for such a project is not be seen as a "deadline", but as an indicative date. There is no contractual obligation and there cannot be. It's a "best effort" promise, always.

Kickstarter founders know well that a project can, also, fail. Any investor knows that. You give money and you buy a hope, not a certainty. It's called capitalism.

 

[pbromaghin]

great reason for all the companies to put out more B&W film that we don't need.

A great reason for a company to do it with the very first test run of their coater, just out of mothballs. You would rather they did something more difficult and more likely to fail so they could end up with nothing but a useless ball of acetate? And if we really don't need it and nobody wants it, why did the website blow up due to the high demand within hours of going live?

Edit to add:

They also were fortunate enough to find the complete recipe for producing P30, the actual "cooking instructions" as it were.

 

[Hatchetman]

Looks like Acros might be going bye-bye and TMax 100 maybe never to return as 120, so we sure could use more B&W films right now.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The difficulty of obtaining a stable high speed film is well documented. The higher the speed, the more sensitive to radiation and heat. Higher speed films fog more easily. I have seen 25,000 ISO films made, but putting on on the shelf is another matter.

It is a very delicate and costly procedure to make a high speed film.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

Slightly OT: Efke 50 was also a unique film - until you decided on 8x10 format. I've had so much headache seeing all the blotches clearly visible in larger homogenous-tone areas - on film developed in a Jobo 3004 for a client. He switched to Foma 200 - as Ilford costs an arm and a leg. No blotches. Hopefully Ferrania coats p30 on large format without blotches AND without excessive price.

I am quite aware of this Efke problem. They were using an ancient trough coater that left a lot to be desired. The Ferrania equipment I have seen is state of the art, pretty much.

PE

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I am quite aware of this Efke problem. They were using an ancient trough coater that left a lot to be desired. The Ferrania equipment I have seen is state of the art, pretty much.

PE

That explains the weird mottling on some of my Efke IR 8x10. I've not seen it on any of 8x10 Efke 25, though...yet. Is a trough coater like what can be seen in the 1958 film, kodak- How Film Is Made, on youtube?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kodak only revealed a trough coater in the early film. They had far more modern means of coating by then. I've posted a piece of 11x14 EFKE scanned as raw stock revealing the sinusoidal pattern in the coating. They had chatter and blotches.

PE

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I'm assuming the vertical coater is old technology, and the horizontal ones are more modern?

 

[Photo Engineer]

No Andrew. Coatings can be horizontal or vertical, it is the nature of the head end or "hopper" that determines the "modernity" of a coater as follows:

Trough coater
Trough with doctor blade or air knife
Extrusion hopper
Slide hopper
Curtain coater

That is a rough sequence and the last 3 can be vertical or horizontal.

PE