Has anyone tried this yet? BelliniFoto Monopart C41 Kit

[TonyB65]

I used the Bellini kit and had a quick 30 second wash step after bleach and after fix and didn't have any issues at all. I also did full tank inversions instead of the "twiddle" method.

 

[pentaxuser]

Wow the pendulum has certainly swung a long way to the other side! You must do what you feel will solve the problem and if that is the Digibase Kit then fine. However I am curious, as I think you must be, why the problem is random frames only and secondly why your first report less than a month ago, was largely one of success, especially with the in-date quality film of Ektar.

I think you are right about 45 secs of bleach being ridiculously short but from what I know about bleach from posts here, longer than 45 secs is not a problem. The Digibase kit require a longer time and I think it was PE( ex-Kodak film engineer) who said that a time as long as 6 mins 30 secs for bleach was fine. Unless the Bellini bleach acts quite differently then I do wonder what problems can arise if the bleach is given longer than 45 secs. Bellini seem to have only succeeded in frustrating you, understandably so, in trying to do a step in 45 seconds

Phrases like "Best in the World" suggest that those trying to promote this kit may be looking for other unnecessary accolades they can attach such as shortest and easiest process in the world which no washes and 45 secs in bleach would lead to but to what end? The kit, if it works, and I use the word "if" as I have not used it, can surely stand or fall if longer bleach times and washing is used

I cannot get rid of a feeling that the problems with some of your latest film frames may have other than the Bellini kit as the cause.

pentaxuser

 

[Fin]

Wow the pendulum has certainly swung a long way to the other side! You must do what you feel will solve the problem and if that is the Digibase Kit then fine. However I am curious, as I think you must be, why the problem is random frames only and secondly why your first report less than a month ago, was largely one of success, especially with the in-date quality film of Ektar.

Well, firstly, it was just one batch of 3 films, I got decent looking results, and all was good. Unfortunately good buggered off and was replaced by increasingly sketchy...

Between the results I was getting for ages with Digibase and the new Bellini kit, the only thing that has changed is the processing kit itself. Same batch of film, same camera, same agitation, same thermometers and temp control, even down to the same brand of distilled water. Even morer than that, it was done in exactly the same place in the kitchen! That is why I suspect the kit. Looking back at the first tank of films I did, two of them were expired and the Ektar was in date. All gave seemingly decent and more importantly, non streaky results though. Next few films, just a couple of slightly streaky looking frames. And after that, the streaks increased.

Of course and also very obviously, there is a strong possibility of contamination between baths, which could be causing this issue. However, not only have I been using this kit by meticulously following the instructions from the manufacturer, but also I have a small cupboard full of labelled measuring cylinders for each bath in all 3 developing processes. E6, B&W and C41. (Yeah, darkroom Joblot listings on eBay FTW!) And I've been pouring out and making sure that the tank is totally empty before moving onto the next step.

Unless the Bellini bleach acts quite differently then I do wonder what problems can arise if the bleach is given longer than 45 secs. Bellini seem to have only succeeded in frustrating you, understandably so, in trying to do a step in 45 seconds

The bleach bath in this kit seems to act very differently from the Digibase (and from the Tetenal kit AFAICR) because this one doesn't build up any pressure in the tank as it's working. I find that unless I vent the cap of my Nikor tank, it can pop off after agitation. (I use PVC tape to seal around the lid and sometimes it even seeps through that) As for the 45 second step, more of a minor annoyance than anything else really, possibly a factor of this kit being designed to be used in a minilab.

I cannot get rid of a feeling that the problems with some of your latest film frames may have other than the Bellini kit as the cause.

Which is why I've posted the follow-up. Hopefully we might get a few guesses as to why it's not happening to every frame of the film which may be of help to others using this kit. Like I said, the only thing that has changed in my process is the soup!

 

[vwalt]

This thread has been some marathon and it is rather old. Nonetheless, for newer users of the Bellini C41 Monopart, the following may be of use as the instructions to this date (early February 2025) are still not as clear as they might be.

Yes, you do need to wash after the fixer. This can be done in either of two ways:

1. Use the Bellini Stabiliser as a wash/stabiliser making sure that the solution is discarded after each wash OR
2. Wash with water after the Fix then dunk for 30 seconds in the Bellini stabiliser solution after the water wash. Do not rinse with water (distilled or not) after this step.

These are the instructions from Bellini although perhaps not very usefully translated on their latest instruction sheet.

I use method 2 washing with the water according to the Ilford technique. I'd suggest that the final rinse with stabiliser is a dunk without agitation. This is where the instructions are far from clear as they state 3 minutes with constant agitation. If you do that, you are likely to get substantial water spotting and streaking on the negatives.

Hope this helps

 

[pentaxuser]

Yes, you do need to wash after the fixer. This can be done in either of two ways:

1. Use the Bellini Stabiliser as a wash/stabiliser making sure that the solution is discarded after each wash OR
2. Wash with water after the Fix then dunk for 30 seconds in the Bellini stabiliser solution after the water wash. Do not rinse with water (distilled or not) after this step.

These are the instructions from Bellini although perhaps not very usefully translated on their latest instruction sheet.

I use method 2 washing with the water according to the Ilford technique. I'd suggest that the final rinse with stabiliser is a dunk without agitation. This is where the instructions are far from clear as they state 3 minutes with constant agitation. If you do that, you are likely to get substantial water spotting and streaking on the negatives.

Hope this helps

It does. Your points 1&2 are clear and easy to follow and as either works fine then that's all users need to know Just a pity that the Bellini instructions still leave something to be desired and I agree totally with what you say about agitation in the "why risk it ?" sense when stabiliser struck me as the sort of liquid that does its job perfectly well with just a straight dunk

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

I'd suggest that the final rinse with stabiliser is a dunk without agitation. This is where the instructions are far from clear as they state 3 minutes with constant agitation. If you do that, you are likely to get substantial water spotting and streaking on the negatives.

I don't see the connection between agitation of the final rinse/stabilizer and drying marks, to be honest.
In general, agitation is a good idea. In the specific case of a stabilizer, it's likely sort of OK to allow diffusion to do its work, in which case you may consider lengthening the final rinse to 3-5 minutes or so. However, I'd recommend agitating. You want to actually replace the water in the emulsion with water containing the stabilizer. Agitation greatly helps this process.

 

[halfaman]

I use method 2 washing with the water according to the Ilford technique. I'd suggest that the final rinse with stabiliser is a dunk without agitation. This is where the instructions are far from clear as they state 3 minutes with constant agitation. If you do that, you are likely to get substantial water spotting and streaking on the negatives.

What you will get agitating is foam and a reel that shoud be thoroughly washed to avoid producing foam in next developments. I do the final rinse taking the film out of the reel and throwing it into a separate jar with the solution.

 

[Ben Hutcherson]

No experience with this particular Bellini kit(I've used their 1L E6 kit and been happy with it. but that's the only product of theirs I use) but whether doing B&W, C-41, E6, or ECN-2 I do pretty much all final rinses/stabilizers the same. I generally pour them in the tank, slosh them around a few times(no inversion) and let them sit for a few minutes while I do other stuff to clean up and/or get ready to process more film. I generally will then pull the reels out of the tank(at least where possible) and then dump the rinse.

Too much agitation causes foaming, which can in turn cause spotting on the film IME. Granted I've had less of an issue with rinses out of kits than when I've gone out on my own and done photoflo in distilled water(B&W) or photoflo+formalin for color...and when making my own I've found the Photoflo plays a lot nicer diluted 1:400 than at the spec 1:200.

 

[vwalt]

I don't see the connection between agitation of the final rinse/stabilizer and drying marks, to be honest.
In general, agitation is a good idea. In the specific case of a stabilizer, it's likely sort of OK to allow diffusion to do its work, in which case you may consider lengthening the final rinse to 3-5 minutes or so. However, I'd recommend agitating. You want to actually replace the water in the emulsion with water containing the stabilizer. Agitation greatly helps this process.

My experience, when agitating for 3 minutes was very negative with substantial spotting which disappeared when I changed to a dunk for 30 seconds. YMMV

At best, the Bellini instructions are confusing. A 3 minute stabilizer with agitation seems wrong and I'm not sure that this is what Bellini is advising anyway but getting a definitive reply is far from forthcoming. Other C41 kits mostly recommend shorter stabilizer times, often without agitation (Kodak 1:30 first 30 second agitation, 1 minute standing, Jobo C41, 1 minute no agitation, Adox 30 seconds...)

 

[koraks]

A 3 minute stabilizer with agitation seems wrong

It's not critical either way. If you look into what a stabilizer is/does, you'll notice that in principle it doesn't matter whether you treat the film with it for 30 seconds or 3 hours. It's fine as long as the liquid gets a chance to diffuse into the gelatin emulsion. How come you ran into problems with drying marks I couldn't say, but I expect there's an additional uncontrolled/confounding factor at work.

As always, "do what works best for you", regardless of the why & what.

 

[vwalt]

It's not critical either way. If you look into what a stabilizer is/does, you'll notice that in principle it doesn't matter whether you treat the film with it for 30 seconds or 3 hours. It's fine as long as the liquid gets a chance to diffuse into the gelatin emulsion. How come you ran into problems with drying marks I couldn't say, but I expect there's an additional uncontrolled/confounding factor at work.

As always, "do what works best for you", regardless of the why & what.

As always, "do what works best for you", regardless of the why & what

That's mostly pretty good advice

FWIW: Last week I developed 15 rolls of 120 in the Bellini. The first 4 were horribly marked and I had to spend ages correcting in PS after scanning. Then I changed two things. I added a thorough wash after the fix and dunked in stabilizer for 30 seconds. Thereafter perfect results with the remaining 11 rolls so honestly I do not know whether the wash or the shorter stabilizer time were the factors which gave the improvement.

To be fair to Bellini, they do mention the requirement for a wash after the fix stage but it's sort of lost in small letters at the very bottom of their instruction sheet. I suspect they are also saying that the final wash can in fact be done by using the stabilizer solution. Hence perhaps the 3 minute requirement.

The Bellini kit is probably very good but there are some aspects I do not like in addition to the stabilizer issue such as the very short bleach time so, as a by the way, I'm going to try the new ADOX-C-TEK C41 kit.

I'll try to report back in a couple of weeks when I've had a chance to familiarize myself with the ADOX

 

[koraks]

I added a thorough wash after the fix and dunked in stabilizer for 30 seconds. Thereafter perfect results with the remaining 11 rolls so honestly I do not know whether the wash or the shorter stabilizer time were the factors which gave the improvement.

Ah, there we go. So I understand previously you didn't wash the film between fixer and stabilizer? Because that will definitely result in major problems. The only use-case in which a wash is omitted after fixer is in the case of minilabs where rollers or doctor blades remove virtually all of the processing liquids at the end of each bath (so also fixer). In a home setting, there will always be a significant amount of chemistry carried over to the next step. If you didn't wash between fixer and stabilizer, this means you've been introducing significant amounts of fixer into your stabilizer. The fixer and fixer-silver compounds will then dry on the surface of the film, causing problems.

ALWAYS wash your film, ALWAYS, ALWAYS.

I suspect they are also saying that the final wash can in fact be done by using the stabilizer solution.

NO NO NO NO NO!
Stabilizer is NOT a wash!!!!

PS: it would be a good idea to re-wash the negatives that you didn't wash properly and went from fix straight into stab. Wash them thoroughly, then run through stabilizer again.
It's also a good idea to dump the stabilizer that has been contaminated with fixer and mix some fresh stabilizer.

 

[pentaxuser]

As always, "do what works best for you", regardless of the why & what

I suspect they are also saying that the final wash can in fact be done by using the stabilizer solution. Hence perhaps the 3 minute requirement.

I recall reading the Bellini instructions as well and I agree that is the way I think they read or should I say that was what I felt Bellini were saying from what I read but maybe the proof reading done on the translation may not have conveyed what is the better advice, namely what koraks has said about a wash then the stabiliser being the safer procedure

pentaxuser

 

[Ben Hutcherson]

WIth a few notable exceptions(like between pre-bleach and bleach in E6, or for any use of a divided/two bath developer) it's pretty unusual that adding extra tempered washes will do any harm.

I generally wash between bleach and fix in both E6 and C41, for example. I know that bleach carry-over into fixer isn't necessarily detrimental, but I also will often hold back and use the fixer from a color kit that's otherwise depleted or aged out for B&W developing, and I DON'T want to inadvertently turn my fix into even a mild blix for that use.

I think I got extra paranoid around adding extra washes when I started doing ECN-2. Since I use a ferricyanide bleach with it, and also use the specified sulfuric acid stop, I wanted to be extra careful to prevent carry-over, especially given that I know I'm unable to smell cyanide gas. That just extended to all the steps unless specifically counter-indicated.

 

[vwalt]

Ah, there we go. So I understand previously you didn't wash the film between fixer and stabilizer? Because that will definitely result in major problems. The only use-case in which a wash is omitted after fixer is in the case of minilabs where rollers or doctor blades remove virtually all of the processing liquids at the end of each bath (so also fixer). In a home setting, there will always be a significant amount of chemistry carried over to the next step. If you didn't wash between fixer and stabilizer, this means you've been introducing significant amounts of fixer into your stabilizer. The fixer and fixer-silver compounds will then dry on the surface of the film, causing problems.

ALWAYS wash your film, ALWAYS, ALWAYS.



NO NO NO NO NO!
Stabilizer is NOT a wash!!!!

PS: it would be a good idea to re-wash the negatives that you didn't wash properly and went from fix straight into stab. Wash them thoroughly, then run through stabilizer again.
It's also a good idea to dump the stabilizer that has been contaminated with fixer and mix some fresh stabilizer.

I normally do follow the manufacturer's instructions:

This coming from the instruction sheet which is included with the kit.

And their processing instructions:

 

[koraks]

Yeah, it's an oversight in the Bellini instructions that they mention a processing sequence that does not include a wash step. I can't explain why they recommend a washless process; it doesn't make any sense for home processing.

 

[vwalt]

Interpreting what is says from the Italian:

WASH 3 or 4 times for 45 seconds with stabilizer (presumably discarding after each wash) OR wash normally and then use the stabilizer as a final rinse.

I've done the latter and it seems to work fine.

Probably time for Bellini to update their instruction sheet