Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by Fin, Jul 18, 2017.
I got a reply from Bellini this morning!
And a very literal translation:
Thanks, twelvetone12 .
The confusion so far has two causes:
-) people do not realize that there are/were different kinds of stabilizers (basically three), depending whether the couplers needed stabilisation or not, or whether there is a washing in the proper meaning or not.
-) Bellini advise to use their stabilizer, which is only of the type of final rinse/biocide, during the whole wash process, which is unusal. And instead is done with the other types of stabilizers.
CD chemicals is not synthetized by them, of course, but that doesn't mean they buy C41 from someone else and repakage.
The C41 kit must be used following the included instructions.
The final wash is a stabilizer and a chemical wash, and has the property to was and sterilize the film before drying.
This is to permit the correct preservation through time, without being attacked by bacteria or other agents that would consequently cause its deterioration.
In any case it is possible to wash the film before the stabilizer with running water, for any duration that is deemed appropriate.
Keep in mind these are only words, not tests. And this does not tell us how long we can actually expect the negatives to last.
Makes sense, they are using a final rinse which is the biocide. The film still need a wash prior to the final rinse/stabilizer as PE posted in the C41 kit instructions. After reading the stickied post by PE on "The final word on stabalizers" it makes perfect sense to me - a wash is still required.
I guess that Bellini just meant "no wash is needed between fix and bleach" which is obvious to someone who know how C41 works, but may not be so obvious to people who use blix. This might have caused this confusion.
Yes this indeed might be Berri - so this confusion is comming from there.
It was also mentioned before in this thread - as possible reason.
But what about the instruction to c41 PE
gave here in this thread?
So how would you proceed now?
as usual, washing with water aftyer fixer or before stab if I use a blix. I have been processing my C41 for quite a few years now and I have aexperienced no problems with washing the film
As the official C-41 procedure shows, there should be a wash between bleach and fixer.
Yes, if you eliminate the wash between the bleach and fix, there is no big deal, but the life and capacity of the fix goes way down. You also chance having a brown stain on the final negatives that you would miss due to the mask.
I thought that the OP was simply stating that Bellini's instructions did not mention a wash in the sense of a separate water-only wash. All Bellini seem to have done in its reply to twelvetone 12 is to say that you may use a separate wash if you so wish but the implication is that this is not necessary. I'd draw an analogy with the reply we got from llford on pre-wash for B&W film which was that it won't do any harm but neither is it necessary.
Without wishing to go into the merits of the case for the Bellini process versus the Kodak process or other processes that state water-only washes are required, TonyB65 was trying to state that Bellini's position was that stated in my first sentence. I thought his argument about the Bellini position was reasonable but he was "beaten around the head" a lot for making it.
He appears to be still present on Photrio which is good. I am not sure I'd still be here if I had made the same point and had met with that kind of unwillingness to concede that my statement of Bellini's position had any merit
But it does not appear to have any merit in my experience, so what do you propose be done??
Pentaxuser, the OP has not been involved in this for some time. It has been pointed out that there are other potential problems with this kit which should be addressed, whether the OP has said anything about them or not.
As far as TonyB65 goes, warnings were given from those with experience and knowledge of the problems that could occur with this kit, and why they could occur, not just for the benefit of him but others as well. I saw him being unreasonably argumentative with those who were simply trying to warn, considering his apparent lack of experience and knowledge about chemistry and processes, instead of appreciating the information and warnings given.
To those replies above, I was simply making the point that TonyB65 was equally simply making the point that Bellini's statement on "waterless washes" accords with the Bellini reply to twelvetone12.
It was this refusal to accept he had interpreted Bellin's instructions wrongly that appears rightly in my opinion to have found been so frustrating. As I said in my post 187, the merits or otherwise of "waterless washes" was not the point of my post.
No one was challenging his interpretation of the instructions. It was his insistence that there could be no problems of any kind with the kit if one followed the instructions. That's a fair claim, but around here, you'd better be prepared to back it up with knowledge or experience. When challenged to do so, he could only offer that the manufacturer has been around for a long time so they must know their stuff. When presented with information to the contrary (and the credentials to back them up), he became defensive, called us self proclaimed experts, then insisted we owed him an apology.
I also hope he sticks around as I think everyone on APUG/Photrio has something to share and offer. But don't provoke us. Help us or let us help you.
.....I see !
Since this thread is all about words and nitpicking, I have more nitpicking: Bellini does not state that the rinse in "only" biocide, they say it has a biocide quality, which does not mean it is only biocide. Also the manual notes to change the stabilizer 3 or 4 times during the final wash, discarding it every time. Sincerely the only perplexity I would have is the 1-part CD, but it has served me well up until now.
Edit: fixed the quote (sort of)
This is a thread with most missunderstandings I remember.
But at the end everything has gone good?
So all feel fine now?
And Bellini instruction is also clear..
The quote you attributed to me in this post was said by someone else.
This thread is not about nitpicking, it is about justified warnings. Do you call warning someone to prevent them from potentially compromising their negatives nitpicking?
I purchased a monopart RA-4 kit years ago and the developer bottle was black and useless. I have never had that problem with multi-part kits. A second kit of a different brand worked but had offish colors. That turned me off of monopart kits. Buyer beware.
Ah ops sorry that was AgX, I'm not sure why it quotes you!
In which way are the negatives compromised? By the monopart CD or the 4 washes with the stabilizer at the end? For the monopart CD I'm with you - I too think a multi-part one keeps better (even if I have not had problems with this particular one), for the washing part I don't understand why everybody is getting so emotional.
Also where I live I can't easily import Flexicolor chemistry, so I can choose between the more expensive Tetenal kit (with multipart cd and blix) or the Bellini one (with monopart CD and separate bleach and fix). Maybe the solution is mixing components from the two, who knows.
This is a long thread but the answers are all there, but I will quickly reiterate them--the monopart developer, as you acknowledge, could have keeping problems. If not already deteriorated when you use it, it can quickly deteriorate with use. Then the lack of a wash between bleach and fixer means carryover can shorten the life of, and reduce the effectiveness of, the fixer. Early on the problem is minimal but as the solutions are reused the problem gets worse. Finally, the lack of a good water wash after the fixer puts longevity into question. In a lab environment, the use of replenishment could reduce some of these problems, but otherwise are problematic for the home user.
The problems you and others have obtaining C-41 kits is understood, but the objective of the warnings in this thread is not to say don't use it under any circumstances, but to warn of, and explain potential problems that can occur, regardless of one's situation. I fail to understand why this is not understood or appreciated by some.