Has anyone tried this yet? BelliniFoto Monopart C41 Kit

twelvetone12 · Jan 3, 2018

I got a reply from Bellini this morning!

Il Kit C41 deve essere utilizzato secondo le istruzioni fornite.

Il lavaggio finale è uno stabilizzatore e lavaggio chimico, che ha le qualità di lavare la pellicola e di renderla sterile prima della asciugatura.

Questo per permetterne la corretta conservazione nel tempo, senza che subisca attacchi da batteri o altro e si deteriori di conseguenza.

Tuttavia può effettuare un lavaggio in acqua corrente della durata che desidera opportuno, prima di utilizzare il bagno stabilizzatore.

Una volta utilizzato lo stabilizzatore può scartarlo.

And a very literal translation:

The C41 kit must be used following the included instructions.
The final wash is a stabilizer and a chemical wash, and has the property to was and sterilize the film before drying.
This is to permit the correct preservation through time, without being attacked by bacteria or other agents that would consequently cause its deterioration.
In any case it is possible to wash the film before the stabilizer with running water, for any duration that is deemed appropriate.

pentaxuser · Jan 3, 2018

Thanks, twelvetone12 .

pentaxuser

AgX · Jan 3, 2018

The confusion so far has two causes:

-) people do not realize that there are/were different kinds of stabilizers (basically three), depending whether the couplers needed stabilisation or not, or whether there is a washing in the proper meaning or not.

-) Bellini advise to use their stabilizer, which is only of the type of final rinse/biocide, during the whole wash process, which is unusal. And instead is done with the other types of stabilizers.

Berri · Jan 3, 2018

twelvetone12 said:
if "chemicals from scratch" means synthesizing their own CD4, probably they buy that in bulk from a third party. If it means mixing their own chemistry for the kits they sell, I really don't see why they should not and instead rebrand other things. BTW Bellini sells raw components too, but I can't say if they synth them in-house or not.

CD chemicals is not synthetized by them, of course, but that doesn't mean they buy C41 from someone else and repakage.

RPC · Jan 3, 2018

twelvetone12 said:
I got a reply from Bellini this morning!

The C41 kit must be used following the included instructions.
The final wash is a stabilizer and a chemical wash, and has the property to was and sterilize the film before drying.
This is to permit the correct preservation through time, without being attacked by bacteria or other agents that would consequently cause its deterioration.
In any case it is possible to wash the film before the stabilizer with running water, for any duration that is deemed appropriate.

Keep in mind these are only words, not tests. And this does not tell us how long we can actually expect the negatives to last.

Craig · Jan 3, 2018

Makes sense, they are using a final rinse which is the biocide. The film still need a wash prior to the final rinse/stabilizer as PE posted in the C41 kit instructions. After reading the stickied post by PE on "The final word on stabalizers" it makes perfect sense to me - a wash is still required.

Berri · Jan 4, 2018

Craig said:
Makes sense, they are using a final rinse which is the biocide. The film still need a wash prior to the final rinse/stabilizer as PE posted in the C41 kit instructions. After reading the stickied post by PE on "The final word on stabalizers" it makes perfect sense to me - a wash is still required.

I guess that Bellini just meant "no wash is needed between fix and bleach" which is obvious to someone who know how C41 works, but may not be so obvious to people who use blix. This might have caused this confusion.

trendland · Jan 4, 2018

Berri said:
I guess that Bellini just meant "no wash is needed between fix and bleach" which is obvious to someone who know how C41 works, but may not be so obvious to people who use blix. This might have caused this confusion.

Yes this indeed might be Berri - so this confusion is comming from there.
It was also mentioned before in this thread - as possible reason.
But what about the instruction to c41 PE
gave here in this thread?
So how would you proceed now?
with regards

Berri · Jan 4, 2018

trendland said:
Yes this indeed might be Berri - so this confusion is comming from there.
It was also mentioned before in this thread - as possible reason.
But what about the instruction to c41 PE
gave here in this thread?
So how would you proceed now?
with regards

as usual, washing with water aftyer fixer or before stab if I use a blix. I have been processing my C41 for quite a few years now and I have aexperienced no problems with washing the film

RPC · Jan 4, 2018

As the official C-41 procedure shows, there should be a wash between bleach and fixer.

Photo Engineer · Jan 4, 2018

Yes, if you eliminate the wash between the bleach and fix, there is no big deal, but the life and capacity of the fix goes way down. You also chance having a brown stain on the final negatives that you would miss due to the mask.

PE

pentaxuser · Jan 4, 2018

I thought that the OP was simply stating that Bellini's instructions did not mention a wash in the sense of a separate water-only wash. All Bellini seem to have done in its reply to twelvetone 12 is to say that you may use a separate wash if you so wish but the implication is that this is not necessary. I'd draw an analogy with the reply we got from llford on pre-wash for B&W film which was that it won't do any harm but neither is it necessary.

Without wishing to go into the merits of the case for the Bellini process versus the Kodak process or other processes that state water-only washes are required, TonyB65 was trying to state that Bellini's position was that stated in my first sentence. I thought his argument about the Bellini position was reasonable but he was "beaten around the head" a lot for making it.

He appears to be still present on Photrio which is good. I am not sure I'd still be here if I had made the same point and had met with that kind of unwillingness to concede that my statement of Bellini's position had any merit

pentaxuser

Photo Engineer · Jan 4, 2018

But it does not appear to have any merit in my experience, so what do you propose be done??

PE

RPC · Jan 5, 2018

Pentaxuser, the OP has not been involved in this for some time. It has been pointed out that there are other potential problems with this kit which should be addressed, whether the OP has said anything about them or not.

As far as TonyB65 goes, warnings were given from those with experience and knowledge of the problems that could occur with this kit, and why they could occur, not just for the benefit of him but others as well. I saw him being unreasonably argumentative with those who were simply trying to warn, considering his apparent lack of experience and knowledge about chemistry and processes, instead of appreciating the information and warnings given.

pentaxuser · Jan 5, 2018

To those replies above, I was simply making the point that TonyB65 was equally simply making the point that Bellini's statement on "waterless washes" accords with the Bellini reply to twelvetone12.

It was this refusal to accept he had interpreted Bellin's instructions wrongly that appears rightly in my opinion to have found been so frustrating. As I said in my post 187, the merits or otherwise of "waterless washes" was not the point of my post.

pentaxuser

bvy · Jan 5, 2018

No one was challenging his interpretation of the instructions. It was his insistence that there could be no problems of any kind with the kit if one followed the instructions. That's a fair claim, but around here, you'd better be prepared to back it up with knowledge or experience. When challenged to do so, he could only offer that the manufacturer has been around for a long time so they must know their stuff. When presented with information to the contrary (and the credentials to back them up), he became defensive, called us self proclaimed experts, then insisted we owed him an apology.

I also hope he sticks around as I think everyone on APUG/Photrio has something to share and offer. But don't provoke us. Help us or let us help you.

trendland · Jan 5, 2018

Berri said:
as usual, washing with water aftyer fixer or before stab if I use a blix. I have been processing my C41 for quite a few years now and I have aexperienced no problems with washing the film

.....I see !

with regards

twelvetone12 · Jan 5, 2018

-) Bellini advise to use their stabilizer, which is only of the type of final rinse/biocide, during the whole wash process, which is unusal. And instead is done with the other types of stabilizers.

Since this thread is all about words and nitpicking, I have more nitpicking: Bellini does not state that the rinse in "only" biocide, they say it has a biocide quality, which does not mean it is only biocide. Also the manual notes to change the stabilizer 3 or 4 times during the final wash, discarding it every time. Sincerely the only perplexity I would have is the 1-part CD, but it has served me well up until now.

Edit: fixed the quote (sort of)

trendland · Jan 5, 2018

twelvetone12 said:
Since this thread is all about words and nitpicking, I have more nitpicking: Bellini does not state that the rinse in "only" biocide, they say it has a biocide quality, which does not mean it is only biocide. Also the manual notes to change the stabilizer 3 or 4 times during the final wash, discarding it every time. Sincerely the only perplexity I would have is the 1-part CD, but it has served me well up until now.

This is a thread with most missunderstandings I remember.
But at the end everything has gone good?
So all feel fine now?
And Bellini instruction is also clear..

with regards

RPC · Jan 5, 2018

twelvetone12 said:
Since this thread is all about words and nitpicking, I have more nitpicking: Bellini does not state that the rinse in "only" biocide, they say it has a biocide quality, which does not mean it is only biocide. Also the manual notes to change the stabilizer 3 or 4 times during the final wash, discarding it every time. Sincerely the only perplexity I would have is the 1-part CD, but it has served me well up until now.

The quote you attributed to me in this post was said by someone else.

This thread is not about nitpicking, it is about justified warnings. Do you call warning someone to prevent them from potentially compromising their negatives nitpicking?

I purchased a monopart RA-4 kit years ago and the developer bottle was black and useless. I have never had that problem with multi-part kits. A second kit of a different brand worked but had offish colors. That turned me off of monopart kits. Buyer beware.

twelvetone12 · Jan 5, 2018

Ah ops sorry that was AgX, I'm not sure why it quotes you!
In which way are the negatives compromised? By the monopart CD or the 4 washes with the stabilizer at the end? For the monopart CD I'm with you - I too think a multi-part one keeps better (even if I have not had problems with this particular one), for the washing part I don't understand why everybody is getting so emotional.
Also where I live I can't easily import Flexicolor chemistry, so I can choose between the more expensive Tetenal kit (with multipart cd and blix) or the Bellini one (with monopart CD and separate bleach and fix). Maybe the solution is mixing components from the two, who knows.

RPC · Jan 5, 2018

This is a long thread but the answers are all there, but I will quickly reiterate them--the monopart developer, as you acknowledge, could have keeping problems. If not already deteriorated when you use it, it can quickly deteriorate with use. Then the lack of a wash between bleach and fixer means carryover can shorten the life of, and reduce the effectiveness of, the fixer. Early on the problem is minimal but as the solutions are reused the problem gets worse. Finally, the lack of a good water wash after the fixer puts longevity into question. In a lab environment, the use of replenishment could reduce some of these problems, but otherwise are problematic for the home user.

The problems you and others have obtaining C-41 kits is understood, but the objective of the warnings in this thread is not to say don't use it under any circumstances, but to warn of, and explain potential problems that can occur, regardless of one's situation. I fail to understand why this is not understood or appreciated by some.

Fin · Jun 6, 2018

Good grief!

I can only apologise for the 8 page shit storm I created, then promptly ran away from without realising... I think I checked a couple of days after posting and saw someone had posted about Minilab processes normally not having any wash steps, but then I left the thread alone until breaking the seals on my new Bellini Foto kit last night. Oh, and also, sorry to all the real experts (definitely not in inverted commas) who actually properly know what they are talking about regarding C41 and the whole wash vs washless thing!

So... In answer to my OP (has anyone tried this kit?), yes. Me! I did! Here are my findings:

A batch consisting of a very expired Boots branded Ferrania 400 (Boots - big chemist chain in the UK), quite expired Kodak GT800 (off of a Funsaver disposable) and a fresh roll of recently exposed Ektar 100/120.

Prepping the 1ltr soups is easy, one of them is already done for you, it just needs warming up a bit to use. Although, you do have to make up the Stabiliser before each batch. Considering that for the Rollei kit, the Stab will last longer than the rest of the kit, this is slightly annoying, as is pouring what could be perfectly useable chems down the sink.
The bleach smells lovely. Similar to Kodak Pro B&W stop bath, but from vague early darkroom memories, a bit more like Paterson Acu-Stop. Nice!
All the chems seem to be orange when you pour them out of the tank.
45 really seconds isn't a long time when developing a film. Especially when using a 7" Nikor tank. Even with a home-made Coke bottle funnel. But, the bleach doesn't burp gasses out like the Rollei does; maybe it doesn't have time to build up any gasses... I did have to extend this step due to tank filling and emptying
I chickened out and added a wash between Fix and Stab. Although reading back over the 3 pages of discussion and 5 pages of arguing, I feel I should have added a short wash between Bleach and Fix too

The resulting negs look nice, well the Ektar does, they were great. The Ferrania 400 (which was probably exposed in 2001) was very colour shifty with added camera-back-open-foggyness towards the end of the film. The GT800 looked pretty nice considering it was probably exposed in around 2007. But images happened and they were all useable!

I was initially interested in the Bellini kit because it was billed as 'The Best C41 kit available anywhere'. Yeah, it seems fine. The results look nice, but I haven't personally A-B tested it against anything else.

Would I buy it again? Not sure... I have had really great results from the Rollei kit, which was out of stock last time I needed to order.

Dare I ask about the Tetenal C41?

Berri · Jun 7, 2018

Fin said:
Dare I ask about the Tetenal C41?

I use both bellini and tetenal with good results. I optically print my colour negatives so consistency and quality in results does matter. Where are you from? you can buy bellini chemicals in Folkstone UK at nik and trick

Fin · Jul 2, 2018

Another update!

Fin said:
I was initially interested in the Bellini kit because it was billed as 'The Best C41 kit available anywhere'. Yeah, it seems fine. The results look nice, but I haven't personally A-B tested it against anything else.

Would I buy it again? Not sure... I have had really great results from the Rollei kit, which was out of stock last time I needed to order.

After processing a few different C41 films in these chemicals. My conclusions are as follows:

Bollocks to Bellini!

Sorry, no. Just no. Not happy with it at all. In fact, it's safe to say I'm pretty pissed off with the way some of my films have turned out.

Despite my usual regimental temperature control (which is AFAIAC is spot on with 2 accurate digital thermometers, a Sous Vide, metal tanks and all that) and despite agitation that matches not only Bellini's recommendations but also my own that I always use with the Digibase kit (also E6 and B&W with great results), and adding a wash step before the stabiliser, I get streaky coloured films straight out of the can. Only, it's not the whole film, just random frames that get the streaky effect.

From Ektar 100:

Good - Boaty Mc Brexit Face!

Bad - Broken Sky from the same film

Moar Bad - Broken Swans, still the same roll of film

Another Roll of Ektar 100:

Good - The view behind me from what I was there to photograph...

Crap - Erm, oh... And this frame was the one before the antennas.

And Portra 160 got ruined too:

Good - Happy...

Really quite f*cked off with this now. Not happy. Same roll of film again.

These are just 3 of the 7 that I've developed using this rubbish. I did a few 35mm rolls the other day which turned out just as randomly ruined.

In conclusion then: Nice try, but no. Some of the step times are stupidly short to a point where you can't get the chems back in the bottle quick enough, like the 45 sec Bleach. And it wrecks your shots.

The rest of this crap is going down the drain and I'm going back to the Digibase C41 kit.

Notes: All chems were mixed to manufacturers specs using distilled water at the correct temps. Scanned in totally-everything-turned-off pro mode using a V700. All films were scanned within 12 hours of developing, and quite a lot of swearing took place.

Has anyone tried this yet? BelliniFoto Monopart C41 Kit

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