Harman Photo 17th June announcement. Any ideas what this might be?

[Ian Grant]

Are you suggesting that Harman has so much Phoenix coated that they are afraid they won't be able to sell it and are holding back on introducing the improved version until they run out of existing inventory?

That would be really odd. They've sold the first batch in a few months, so they are obviously capable of coating small enough batches that this shouldn't be a problem.

Besides, a lot of people said they hoped Phoenix would stick around even when Harman had improved C-41 film(s).

No, rather harking back to Ilford/Harman's own comment that they wanted the revenue in terms of profit from Phoenix film sales to be ploughed back into continued research and development, unsold film doesn't do that.

Perhaps you missed my point that labs really don't like the film, and a very high percentage of C41 films are lab processed. It't not the film processing itself, rather its just the minilab software is not designed to interpret the scans.

Realism is it was a proof of concept, that Ilford/Harman could once again after roughly 60 years coat a colour film, a step in R&D.

I don't think that's an entirely accurate reading - there is clearly a limit to how big the market is for any one experimental film (and how many are buying to support Harman vs buying it on its own merits), but there are lots of other experimentalist niches e.g. redscale etc - and if Harman can pick up enough from those too, then it'll definitely speed along the work on Phoenix 2.0. There's clearly a lot going on in the background too (i.e. the work from which Kentmere 200 has spun out from).

You are right, there's a very small market for an experimental film. You seem to be echoing my thoughts in a contradictory way that agrees.

The feedback I've had on Kentmere 200 is it's a very nice film, leagues better than the Kentmere 400. But I can't comment personally as I;m predominantly an LF shooter and stick to my film choices for years, maybe decades,

The Phoenix choice of film speed at 200 ISO is I think right, For some years I shot Fuji Superia 200 35mm, snapshots in a Leica M3, more serious work with a Pentax, but the quality was always amazing.

Ian

 

[dcy]

The feedback I've had on Kentmere 200 is it's a very nice film, leagues better than the Kentmere 400. But I can't comment personally as I;m predominantly an LF shooter and stick to my film choices for years, maybe decades,

Sorry for the tangent, but I'd be interested to know what makes Kentmere 200 leagues better than Kentmere 400. Even if it's just hearsay (but if you have a link to an article or video, that'd be great).

Have you heard anything about how Kentmere 200 compares to its other cousin, Kentmere 100?

 

[brbo]

Perhaps you missed my point that labs really don't like the film, and a very high percentage of C41 films are lab processed. It't not the film processing itself, rather its just the minilab software is not designed to interpret the scans.

I don't understand why you would think that I missed that. You said that "we" overlooked the fact that this version of Phoenix won't sell anymore if/when Harman comes up with the improved version. Labs having trouble scanning Phoenix can't be the reason for sticking to this version/delaying the introduction of the improved version. Oh, I have a Noritsu minilab scanner and at least on Noritsu scanners Phoenix maybe takes an additional minute of time (report here). Labs will soon have a much bigger problem than scanning Phoenix anyway. None of the scanners they are using are being produced anymore and spare parts are running slowly but surely...

So, rather than inventing reasons that don't make much sense I would just accept that the most probable reason why we haven't seen a new version of Phoenix is that a significant enough step towards a better negative colour film hasn't been made by their R&D yet. Artificially delaying new film with the imminent release of Orwo NC200 and Lucky Color 200 would seems pretty risky and stupid. I don't think people at Harman are stupid.

 

[albireo]

I'd be interested to know what makes Kentmere 200 leagues better than Kentmere 400.

I'm also interested, as I've used a fair amount of Kentmere 400 in 35mm and 120 and found it to be a solid, dependable, reliable workhorse of a film, and a very versatile product too.

Anyway - just wildly guessing here - I've found that usually, when senior photographers say something like 'film A is better than film B' (QC standards being the same) they really mostly mean 'film A has less visible grain than film B'.

When people didn't have a digital photography alternative, grain was something undesirable, something to run away from, and film producers raced to develop film with the smallest grain possible. Cue the 't-grain' stuff and why many people who shot film before digital existed still drone on endlessly about how TMAX and Acros are the absolute 'apex' of film photography.

Of course, this doesn't make sense to those of us who approach film because are fascinated by the very characteristics that we cannot find in a desaturated digital DSLR capture.

So if the goal is the smallest grain possible then there will be products that are 'leagues better' than Kentmere 400. If grain is a feature, and not a bug, Kentmere 400 has absolutely beautiful grain in the right developer, exposed and processed correctly.

Another reason why Kentmere 200 is perceived to be leagues better than 400 by some would be the reddit claim that 'Kentmere 400 is flat', which is absolute nonsense if one has control over development variables, as contrast is a function of film+developer, and not film only.

 

[Agulliver]

Certainly my local lab doesn't like Phoenix. I think I mentioned that the lady who runs it has over 50 years experience, having started in commercial photo processing in the times when C41 was just beginning to take over from C22. She tears her hair out whenever a roll of Phoenix is presented. Not because of the processing, but because her minilab just can't scan it reliably. Occasionally a roll goes through fine. Mostly she has to either fiddle with the settings and try multiple passes, or scan manually on a flatbed which obviously means much more time spent and money lost for her and her business.

So I can well believe that labs don't like it. I know she's been in touch with a couple of other lab operators/owners who feel the same. Harman do give guidelines for some minilabs but not all.

It is therefore possible that feedback to Harman from users is that most enjoy shooting Phoenix. I still see a lot of photos popping up on social media. But feedback from commercial labs is less positive. And I bet a lot of shops with labs attached (or labs which sell film) are choosing not to stock Phoenix for that reason. Which could affect sales.

Harman do have an interesting conundrum....they must know that sales of Mk1 Phoenix will plummet when Mk2 is introduced, even if Mk1 retains a core fan base. So that will affect timing. I'm beginning to wonder if we'll get something in the run up to Christmas.

one interesting aspect of Phoenix, from what I've seen, is that it genuinely does make a better redscale film than the opposition. Which is something Harman can do to continue selling any unsold Phoenix at a later date.

 

[Prest_400]

So, rather than inventing reasons that don't make much sense I would just accept that the most probable reason why we haven't seen a new version of Phoenix is that a significant enough step towards a better negative colour film hasn't been made by their R&D yet. Artificially delaying new film with the imminent release of Orwo NC200 and Lucky Color 200 would seems pretty risky and stupid. I don't think people at Harman are stupid.

A precedent for improvements are the color Polaroid (IP) integral films, who more or less continuously come with improvements as well as bi annual (?ca. 2017-24) new generations. And then, much more relevant, is the Agfa asset derived "whoever is using the ex Leverkusen equipment in Monnheim" aka Inovis, Orwo, etc. Which has come more obviously as Lomo Metropolis, Lomo Color 92 and such. Upon a quick look, there has been also a 2-3 year gap between generations of these films. Some 2021 Metropolis formulation followed by 2023s Lomo Color 92.

Harman do have an interesting conundrum....they must know that sales of Mk1 Phoenix will plummet when Mk2 is introduced, even if Mk1 retains a core fan base. So that will affect timing. I'm beginning to wonder if we'll get something in the run up to Christmas.

one interesting aspect of Phoenix, from what I've seen, is that it genuinely does make a better redscale film than the opposition. Which is something Harman can do to continue selling any unsold Phoenix at a later date.

Let's see when/if Harman come with a Phoenix mkII with improvements. But given they have a much smaller operation than other historical Colour manufacturers they may even be able to offer both products in parallel.
Heck, Lucky who used to have full consumer colour film production have also struggled and delayed their "new" colour C41 film. If it isn't easy for those who had the resources at hand, it's much harder for a manufacturer like Harman.

Another reason why Kentmere 200 is perceived to be leagues better than 400 by some would be the reddit claim that 'Kentmere 400 is flat', which is absolute nonsense if one has control over development variables, as contrast is a function of film+developer, and not film only.

OT, still have to try K200 as I have to time for some film order and locally it's at Delta 400 prices. But also, a lot of what would be defects in the heyday are appreciated characteristics nowadays: Grain, halation, colour shifts, etc.

 

[Agulliver]

I think the progression from Lomo Metropolis, Metropolis Mk 2, Color 92 is more relevant because with the Polaroid/Impossible project they had a captive audience....nobody else was making Polaroid compatible film. They also enjoyed a lot of goodwill from Polaroid camera owners who had thought their cameras would be forever redundant. Harman do have to take account of the fact that Kodak makes excellent C41 colour film and others are attempting to do likewise.

 

[pentaxuser]

I'm beginning to wonder if we'll get something in the run up to Christmas.

For some reason whenever I see such a sentiment expressed I can't help thinking of the lyrics of the song "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" as follows:

Santa Claus is coming to town! He sees you when you're sleeping, He knows when you're awake. He knows if you've been bad or good, So be good for goodness sake!

I'll get the help I need some day for my mental state

pentaxuser

 

[NiallerM]

In Harman's Phoenix launch video they (marketing!) claimed that Phoenix was developed from start to finish in "12 short months" ... although I confess I do not know what a "short" month is. The launch date ... after endless hype ... was 1 December 2023.

So here we are, 17th June 2025, more than 18 months later and NO IMPROVED PRODUCT. 12 "short" months to make Phoenix ... 18 months later, nothing new.

I suspect that the original Phoenix project was at least 5 years in the pipeline, not 12 "short" months, and that Harman's excellent technologists are embarrassed by the antics of their marketing department. I hope we see an improved product by 2030, or soon after.

I'd have baulked at using an ad with that tone. It hasn't worked too well in the past:



"They said it couldn't be done." It couldn't be. Guinness Light turned out to be a fiasco.

That said, I hope that Harman can build enthusiasm for what they are doing. I'll be happy to buy products that suit my style of working - and to buy the occasional product that doesn't!

 

[Agulliver]

The problem with Guinness Light was that they were trying to sell it to the younger Irish men in pubs, at a time when easy to drink lager was becoming more popular with that demographic. Guinness did loads of market research which showed that the target audience preferred the taste of "Guinness Light" to regular Guinness but they never asked the crucial question....would you drink this in a pub in Dublin? Because the last thing a young Irish lad in the pub wanted was the perception that he was choosing a less demanding tasting drink. People who did try it were teased for drinking "a girls' drink". Had they chosen a different name such as "Guinness Special Edition", it would probably have worked out.

Harman know their market. Or their social media folk do. The original Phoenix campaign seems drawn out but it created loads of buzz and the stuff sold like hotcakes. It's still selling as far as we can see, new photos on Phoenix regularly pop up all over socials. The redscale version seems to genuinely offer better performance than other companies' offerings. And they're hitting the target with their marketing. It just so happens that we are not the target. I'd suspect that when they have a product, some years down the line, which is comparable to Kodak colour films...they'll market it at us.

 

[ChrisGalway]

The problem with Guinness Light was that they were trying to sell it to the younger Irish men in pubs, at a time when easy to drink lager was becoming more popular with that demographic. Guinness did loads of market research which showed that the target audience preferred the taste of "Guinness Light" to regular Guinness but they never asked the crucial question....would you drink this in a pub in Dublin? Because the last thing a young Irish lad in the pub wanted was the perception that he was choosing a less demanding tasting drink. People who did try it were teased for drinking "a girls' drink". Had they chosen a different name such as "Guinness Special Edition", it would probably have worked out.

I don't think so (speaking as an Irishman). Bear in mind that Guinness Zero is a great success, and the product line as a whole has worldwide sales. "young Irish lad in the pub" is a bit of a stereotype ... they are more likely spending their evenings on their PhD in theoretical physics, or launching their 4th start-up at age 25 !

Harman know their market. Or their social media folk do. The original Phoenix campaign seems drawn out but it created loads of buzz and the stuff sold like hotcakes. It's still selling as far as we can see, new photos on Phoenix regularly pop up all over socials. The redscale version seems to genuinely offer better performance than other companies' offerings. And they're hitting the target with their marketing. It just so happens that we are not the target. I'd suspect that when they have a product, some years down the line, which is comparable to Kodak colour films...they'll market it at us.

"it created loads of buzz". Agreed, a lot of noise.

and "the stuff sold like hotcakes". Do we have any idea what the sales are? This type of information is very hard to come by, even for established products. I'd love to see reliable numbers for any (or all) of the main B&W and colour films from any manufacturer.

 

[NiallerM]

I don't think so (speaking as an Irishman). Bear in mind that Guinness Zero is a great success, and the product line as a whole has worldwide sales. "young Irish lad in the pub" is a bit of a stereotype ... they are more likely spending their evenings on their PhD in theoretical physics, or launching their 4th start-up at age 25 !



"it created loads of buzz". Agreed, a lot of noise.

and "the stuff sold like hotcakes". Do we have any idea what the sales are? This type of information is very hard to come by, even for established products. I'd love to see reliable numbers for any (or all) of the main B&W and colour films from any manufacturer.

As an Irishman who was around for the Guinness Light debacle, I remember well that the typical bar sold three beers: Guinness, Smithwicks, and Harp. Lager was pretty much the younger person's drink. Guinness got it wrong.

I really have no probems at all with what Harman are doing here. They are trying to build their profile in a niche market - but one which reqquires heavy capital and R&D investment. I'd like to see Harman flourish in this space.

A has been mentioned, I'm not squarely in their headlights as a likely consumer, and that's fine with me. They must survive, and if they see other markets for their product then that is their decision. Their decision as to how to present themselves is theirs and theirs alone. I can only wish them the very best.

At this stage in my type of photography, I doubt very much that my world will be rocked by any new products. I'd love to be surprised, mind you. For that reason, I view these types of announcements as meant for someone else - someone for whom it may, indeed, be exciting. If there is such a market out there, then I am excited for another reason, though. I'm excited if analogue has life.

There are curators out there, and there are also newbies. We need each other.

It's all good.

 

[Agulliver]

It's worth remembering that Guinness were trying to sell Guinness Light in 1970s Ireland, to young men. A product such as Guinness Zero might well sell 50 years later. The problem with the way they marketed Light (according to a postmortem on the campaign) was that the name made the selling point that it was easier to drink than regular Guinness...and the lads who were choosing to drink lager might well have preferred the taste but were getting ribbed in pubs for choosing something deliberately more delicate.

No doubt times have changed. But worth noting that Guinness Light wasn't much lower in alcohol than regular Guinness, it was less full bodied and intended to capture sales from younger men who were switching to lager.

Decades later Wytchwood Brewery had a better idea with their real ales, "What's the matter lager boy, afraid you might taste something?"

 

[dcy]

The problem with Guinness Light was that they were trying to sell it to the younger Irish men in pubs, at a time when easy to drink lager was becoming more popular with that demographic. Guinness did loads of market research which showed that the target audience preferred the taste of "Guinness Light" to regular Guinness but they never asked the crucial question....would you drink this in a pub in Dublin? Because the last thing a young Irish lad in the pub wanted was the perception that he was choosing a less demanding tasting drink. People who did try it were teased for drinking "a girls' drink". Had they chosen a different name such as "Guinness Special Edition", it would probably have worked out.

 

[dcy]

If there is such a market out there, then I am excited for another reason, though. I'm excited if analogue has life.

There are curators out there, and there are also newbies. We need each other.

 

[foc]

"They said it couldn't be done." It couldn't be. Guinness Light turned out to be a fiasco.

That said, I hope that Harman can build enthusiasm for what they are doing. I'll be happy to buy products that suit my style of working - and to buy the occasional product that doesn't!

That brings back memories !!!

Back to Harman. Redscale film is not my thing but who cares as I am not its intended market.

They appear to know what they are marketing and who their intended audience is. The names Harman and Phoenix Film are regularly appearing on social media and that IMO is good brand marketing. I believe they will build up a loyal following and when they bring to market, Phoenix Colour with the orange mask, they will have a large multitude of eager customers.

 

[pentaxuser]

Decades later Wytchwood Brewery had a better idea with their real ales, "What's the matter lager boy, afraid you might taste something?"

Wasn't something like that said to Will Kane in Hadleyville .....cue Tex Ritter or is it better illustrated by Dirty Harry's question to the "punk"

pentaxuser