Harman Photo 17th June announcement. Any ideas what this might be?

[dcy]

So here we are, 17th June 2025, more than 18 months later and NO IMPROVED PRODUCT. 12 "short" months to make Phoenix ... 18 months later, nothing new.

I suspect that the original Phoenix project was at least 5 years in the pipeline, not 12 "short" months, and that Harman's excellent technologists are embarrassed by the antics of their marketing department. I hope we see an improved product by 2030, or soon after.

There are many possible ways that it could be true that Phoenix was developed in 12 months without it implying a promise to release a new version every 12 months.

Phoenix itself did not start from scratch. It is based on XP2. Secondly, it could easily be the case that there are diminishing returns at play, where every iterative advance requires significantly more effort than the one before.

 

[pentaxuser]

It's the "modern way" to announce things, isn't it? It is likely to appeal to those whom Harman judge to be its main market

It was never intended for the average Photrio member. I suspect that those here who are not in favour of this kind of marketing will still buy the Redscale 120 if that is what they like or not buy it if they don't. Their choice will have nothing to do with their opinion on whether or not they applaud this method of announcement

pentaxuser

 

[pentaxuser]

I beat them to it with my own version of Phoenix Red 120

Yes you did Andrew and it may be best to move around in Japan in a form of "witness protectíon" rather than return to Canada where it may be easy to find out where you live

pentaxuser

 

[Milpool]

Well this is a shocking level of negativity etc. Shame on you all. Shame!

 

[0x001688936CA08]

Well this is a shocking level of negativity etc. Shame on you all. Shame!

Well played.

 

[mshchem]

Whatever brings in the £££. I will buy a roll for the colorful (colourful) box.

Takes some nerve to invest in analog (analogue) photography.

In 10 years will there be 1/3 , 1/2 the cameras that exist today??

Maybe start selling Harman Red Ale

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Whatever brings in the £££. I will buy a roll for the colorful (colourful) box.

Takes some nerve to invest in analog (analogue) photography.

In 10 years will there be 1/3 , 1/2 the cameras that exist today??

Maybe start selling Harman Red Ale

 

[Agulliver]

The only reason I won't be buying the red film is because it isn't something I want to try. Phoenix, I've shot a few rolls...had fun, supported the project and continue to talk it up. However, one of my partners may well find that redscale is exactly what she wants so I can see myself purchasing some for her as a Christmas present if it's still around in December.

I'm also aware that the lady who runs my local processing lab tears her hair out when any rolls of Phoenix appear on her desk as it really doesn't get on with her Agfa DLab2. So specifically I am awaiting the next improvement, which I *hope* is an orange mask.

Who knows when it will appear. Harman made no promises as to timelines. I am a little surprised we've not seen a significant improvement yet but not especially disappointed. These things take time. Colour film is an incredibly complex product to R&D and to manufacture. The fact that the world experts in B&W film cannot, even with increased resources, come up with a "normal" C41 film quickly tells us something about how difficult that task is. But I have every confidence that they will improve Phoenix. I'm just not sticking to any self imposed timeline. If I had guessed 18 months ago, I'd have expected something "upgraded" would have appeared by now. But it hasn't and that doesn't mean Harman have failed.

There still seems a fair bit of buzz out there in social media land....and the marketing works for their target audience....which (need I say it again?) is not us.

FWIW I think Harman got a bit lucky in that after just 12 months serious R&D on the colour film, they got something that worked well enough to sell. And it seems to have sold very well. I'm curious as to what their accounts, due to be filed in September, will show in terms of increased revenue from Phoenix and increased R&D costs.

 

[ChrisGalway]

It's the "modern way" to announce things, isn't it? It is likely to appeal to those whom Harman judge to be its main market

It was never intended for the average Photrio member. I suspect that those here who are not in favour of this kind of marketing will still buy the Redscale 120 if that is what they like or not buy it if they don't. Their choice will have nothing to do with their opinion on whether or not they applaud this method of announcement

pentaxuser

You're right of course, the boundaries between fact and fiction have almost disappeared. It doesn't matter for Phoenix ... but back in the real world I think it's essential to distinguish between the two.

 

[foc]

Well this is a shocking level of negativity etc. Shame on you all. Shame!

+100K

Just because a product is not to a person's liking, isn't what they wished for, doesn't make it a bad product. That negative opinion is just a drop in the ocean.

When I had my own shop/studio/minilab, we thankfully only had a few ( 0.02% of customers, approx) who were negative (pardon the pun) experts who always complained about everything photographic. We dreaded to see them come in the door, on a Saturday morning.

One Saturday morning I lost my cool, after 30 minutes of listening to how my C41 was out of control, I told them to pay 10 or get out. They didn't come back.

 

[ChrisGalway]

......

Just because a product is not to a person's liking, isn't what they wished for, doesn't make it a bad product. That negative opinion is just a drop in the ocean.

.............

The problem is not the product, the problem is Harman's marketing of it. I'd be embarrassed if I were one of their film technology team.

 

[Don_ih]

The problem is not the product, the problem is Harman's marketing of it. I'd be embarrassed if I were one of their film technology team.

Why? In this instance, they announced on social media a week ago that they would be revealing a product. Is that even any great amount of marketing? You'll notice that announcements made on social media channels are targeted at people who "follow" them (implies those people are actually interested in them).

 

[tykos]

Why? In this instance, they announced on social media a week ago that they would be revealing a product. Is that even any great amount of marketing? You'll notice that announcements made on social media channels are targeted at people who "follow" them (implies those people are actually interested in them).

not that i dig redscale films, but the amount of rage on harman's announcements is always fun to watch

 

[dcy]

Who knows when it will appear. Harman made no promises as to timelines. I am a little surprised we've not seen a significant improvement yet but not especially disappointed. These things take time. Colour film is an incredibly complex product to R&D and to manufacture. The fact that the world experts in B&W film cannot, even with increased resources, come up with a "normal" C41 film quickly tells us something about how difficult that task is. But I have every confidence that they will improve Phoenix. I'm just not sticking to any self imposed timeline. If I had guessed 18 months ago, I'd have expected something "upgraded" would have appeared by now. But it hasn't and that doesn't mean Harman have failed.

Exactly.

Harman never promised or even hinted at a new version in 12 months. This is crazy. It's such a weird example of anchoring. If Phoenix had been released without any information about how long it took to make, nobody would have suggested that we'd get a new version every 12 months. But apparently, since Phoenix took 12 months, that somehow means that Harman has to release a new version every 12 months? This is nuts. We've invented an unreasonable deadline that Harman never suggested, and then act like Harman failed when they don't deliver.

Remind me. When was the last time Kodak released a new version of Kodak Gold?

 

[dcy]

not that i dig redscale films, but the amount of rage on harman's announcements is always fun to watch

How dare Harman make a brief post that Harman's social media followers might be interested in?!!

 

[pentaxuser]

You're right of course, the boundaries between fact and fiction have almost disappeared. It doesn't matter for Phoenix ... but back in the real world I think it's essential to distinguish between the two.

Yes and becoming more difficult to do but that's a vital philosophical discussion but one for a philosophy forum. As Steve McQueen said in the embryonic form of Photrio "Philsophy isn't our problem, we deal in film, friend "

pentaxuser

 

[Agulliver]

The problem is not the product, the problem is Harman's marketing of it. I'd be embarrassed if I were one of their film technology team.

Wow did one of their directors pee in your cornflakes?

What's wrong with the marketing? it's hitting exactly the audience they want.

Once again. It. Is. Not. Aimed. At. Us.

And I suspect the Harman engineers are quite happy that the marketing is successful as it means their jobs are safe, and they can beaver away in the laboratory to their hearts' content without worrying if Harman will sell sufficient Phoenix and Red to justify their positions.

I'd be embarrassed if they lied. Which Harman has conspicuously not done.

 

[Ian Grant]

There is something we are over-looking. If and when Ilford/Harman introduce a newer colour film, it will be difficult to sell the remaining Phoenix film stocks.

Last Friday I was talking to someone in the trade, they offer C41, E6, ECN2, as well as B&W processing. They are reluctant to process Phoenix film, they correctly pointed out the best results come from people home processing and scanning or printing their own negatives. A lot is down to the longer time interpreting scans in a commercial environment, and that's best left to the photographer. I'd add the company also sells a lot of C41 & chemistry, so their comments on Phoenix are based on customers comments (and images).

There was a similar issue when Ilford launched XP1, it could be processed in C41 chemistry or Ilford's own XP1 chemistry. The issue was it needed a non-standard C41 development time, so labs couldn't process it alongside C41 films, in addition Ilford gave times in their chemistry for N- & N+ development, and push processing times. The result was most labs were reluctant to process XP1.

So XP1 was replaced by XP2 which used the standard C41 development time, there was no mention of push processing, or N-/N+ development times in the datasheets. At the time I was using XP1 then XP2 push processed to 1600 or 3200 EI to shoot rock concerts and discussed this on a trip to Ilford in Mobberley. I was told labs had asked for the compatibility, but of course like XP1 it could be push processed, labs had asked for that to be left out as well.

Red Scale film 35mm & 120 is a way to help shift what's left of the Phoenix film. Phoenix itself was also about converting Ilford's existing B&W coating line as well as the surrounding infra structure to coat colour materials. When I visited Mobberley in the early to mid 1980s they had just consolidated to the site, closing their Ilford factories, selling off their Graphics and Medical side to Agfa. A space on the site was designated for a new building to house a colour coating facility, they still had staff and researchers who had been involved with the company's earlier colour films in the 50s & 60s. They began selling 35mm E6 films (and I think C41) in the early 1980s hoping to build up a share of the colour market, re-branding Konica/Sakura films. However, these films were not in the same league as Agfa, Fuji, Kodak and even 3M/Ferrania, and didn't sell well. I did try the Ilfochrome E6 film and was not impressed.

Ian

 

[thinkbrown]

I had a chat with some of the folks at the Ilford booth at BILD and the gist of what they told me is that whenever they launch another color film, Phoenix is going to depend on if people are still buying it. Unsurprisingly, if people keep buying it, it sounds like they're happy to keep making it.

 

[brbo]

There is something we are over-looking. If and when Ilford/Harman introduce a newer colour film, it will be difficult to sell the remaining Phoenix film stocks.

Are you suggesting that Harman has so much Phoenix coated that they are afraid they won't be able to sell it and are holding back on introducing the improved version until they run out of existing inventory?

That would be really odd. They've sold the first batch in a few months, so they are obviously capable of coating small enough batches that this shouldn't be a problem.

Besides, a lot of people said they hoped Phoenix would stick around even when Harman had improved C-41 film(s).

 

[Lachlan Young]

Red Scale film 35mm & 120 is a way to help shift what's left of the Phoenix film

I don't think that's an entirely accurate reading - there is clearly a limit to how big the market is for any one experimental film (and how many are buying to support Harman vs buying it on its own merits), but there are lots of other experimentalist niches e.g. redscale etc - and if Harman can pick up enough from those too, then it'll definitely speed along the work on Phoenix 2.0. There's clearly a lot going on in the background too (i.e. the work from which Kentmere 200 has spun out from).

 

[dcy]

I had a chat with some of the folks at the Ilford booth at BILD and the gist of what they told me is that whenever they launch another color film, Phoenix is going to depend on if people are still buying it. Unsurprisingly, if people keep buying it, it sounds like they're happy to keep making it.

Wait... I'm getting mixed messages here... Are you saying that if we keep buying Phoenix, Harman will just stick to Phoenix and not make anything new? That can't be right.

 

[thinkbrown]

Wait... I'm getting mixed messages here... Are you saying that if we keep buying Phoenix, Harman will just stick to Phoenix and not make anything new? That can't be right.

Not what I meant. Whether they continue coating phoenix in addition to a future color film stock will depend on continuing demand for Phoenix

 

[dcy]

I don't think that's an entirely accurate reading - there is clearly a limit to how big the market is for any one experimental film (and how many are buying to support Harman vs buying it on its own merits), but there are lots of other experimentalist niches e.g. redscale etc - and if Harman can pick up enough from those too, then it'll definitely speed along the work on Phoenix 2.0. There's clearly a lot going on in the background too (i.e. the work from which Kentmere 200 has spun out from).

I think this is the correct take. There is a market for redscale film. A small niche, yes, but one Harman can out-compete its rivals on technical merit --- Harman Red has a higher effective ISO and tonal range than the products from Lomo and Kono.

People who like to shoot redscale but have no interest in supporting Harman will go out and buy Harman Red because it is a better product in that niche.

 

[dcy]

Not what I meant. Whether they continue costing phoenix in addition to a future color film stock will depend on continuing demand for Phoenix

Ah! Phew!