Harman Photo 17th June announcement. Any ideas what this might be?

[Agulliver]

The sales of C41 colour film dwarf B&W film many times over. Isn't C41 colour film something like 90% of the still photography market? I recall Henning and possibly Matt saying so recently. So absolutely, Phoenix and the redscale film have the potential to make a significant difference to Harman's cashflow....not that they were in trouble but they've basically been ticking over making a small profit for years, not expanding and not making sufficient profit to modernise production equipment or hire more people. Before too long they'll file their latest figures and we'll get an idea about how the introduction of Phoenix has affected them.

We certainly don't represent the majority. We are a tiny fraction, those dedicated enough to visit a forum and contribute to it. The majority may well be made up of several demographics but they ain't coming here. That's not because Photrio isn't a great place to exchange knowledge, or a great repository of knowledge....it's because the majority of film users never do participate in online discussions and the younger folk who do are on Discord servers, TikTok, Insta and so on.

Ilford really is the biggest name in B&W photography globally. Between the Ilford and Kentmere brands, Harman offers just about every possible product the B&W photographer could ever want. There were three potential ways to expand the business. ...

One would be to advertise more and hope to gain more customers from Kodak/Fuji/Foma/Adox. I'd imagine that's difficult for the market leader, and where those who do have a strong preference (for Kodak or FUji) probably can't be swayed. The fact is, I see Ilford B&W film wherever I go around the UK, Europe, USA, Japan.

Another might be to branch out into something totally different to photography - which they already do to some extent offering their machinery and services for non-photo uses

Or they could branch out into the biggest sector of the industry they have 140 years of experience in....colour film photography. Risks are low, especially as they sell Phoenix to help fund the R&D....and potential rewards are high compared to their turnover.

We should know by the end of September when they file their 2024 accounts....it'll be interesting to compare the figures with recent years.

 

[dcy]

Except that in terms of the death or continued life of film photography this forum does not represent the bulk of film users nor the future of film. We are not anything like big enough to be that important to Harman or to any other film manufacturers for that matter.

I was actually thinking as much about the community on Reddit as this forum. Maybe Reddit's not representative either, but boy those guys loved to hate on the Pentax 17 in particular.

 

[thinkbrown]

I was actually thinking as much about the community on Reddit as this forum. Maybe Reddit's not representative either, but boy those guys loved to hate on the Pentax 17 in particular.

Reddit seems to just attract toxicity in general, regardless of niche

 

[dcy]

I don’t personally have any use for “gimmick” color films...
But if Harman wants to explore these curious C-41 type films and bring them to market in an attempt to appeal to a specific demographic, that’s fine by me..., so products like “red scale” and Phoenix have the potential to boost Harman’s financial stability, which is something that I want to see.

Following that train of thought, I think every B&W photographer should be really happy that Harman Red exists:

Here's a product that is (1) absurdly easy to make (you literally just roll the film backwards), (2) yet, Harman can sell it at a premium ($15 vs $10 for Phoenix), (3) while undercutting competitors (Lomo and Kono) in price, (4) and delivering higher quality (Phoenix's transparent base makes Red have a much higher "effective ISO" than other red scale film).

You should celebrate when your favorite B&W company makes a product you don't like, but they get to sell at a nice margin to people who aren't you.

 

[retina_restoration]

Reddit seems to just attract toxicity in general, regardless of niche

You could just as easily have said "the Internet", not just Reddit.

 

[thinkbrown]

You could just as easily have said "the Internet", not just Reddit.

Hahaha, fair enough. Reddit seems to on average be worse than dedicated forums, but it really depends on the moderation team for a given sub.

 

[Agulliver]

I imagine that the single biggest step they could take would be introduction of the orange mask to Phoenix. So that's what I am hoping this is. That will instantly make Phoenix more compatible with various pro and home scanning systems, easier to wet print and closer to conventional C41 film.

I do hope that they are able to offer the original Phoenix, even if it's a once a year thing, because it has it's uses and I know some people are cross-processing it and using it as slide film due to the lack of orange mask.

 

[tykos]

In the meantime. we have another cryptic clue from Harman on their socials. I know a lot of folk here, being even older and more crusty than myself, don't like this kind of marketing but it's how things are done these days - especially for the audience the Harman colour products are mostly aimed at.

well, to be fair it's only a reel saying "we'll announce something a week from today", nothing crazy. They learned from the infinite phoenix announcements...

 

[pentaxuser]

I guarantee that on the day some will be overwhelmed, some underwhelmed and some indifferent

pentaxuser

 

[AnselMortensen]

I plan on being just plain "whelmed".

 

[Agulliver]

well, to be fair it's only a reel saying "we'll announce something a week from today", nothing crazy. They learned from the infinite phoenix announcements...

Yes. They learned it works for their target audience.

 

[pentaxuser]

What! No announcement yet? 17 June is already 12 hours old with half its life already gone in the U.K. Perhaps it is waiting for high noon in most of the U.S. where its market lies?

pentaxuser

 

[thinkbrown]

...They did say 1pm

 

[FotoD]

This it?

 

[Agulliver]

Underwhelming but not exactly surprising.

 

[albireo]

I guarantee that on the day some will be overwhelmed, some underwhelmed and some indifferent

pentaxuser

I'm otherwhelmed.

Wake me up when they release other colours - a Harman bluescale or goldscale would be appealing for me.

 

[brbo]

Harman have definitely mastered the "underpromise and overdeliver" marketing...

 

[Milpool]

Next they should do infraredscale.

 

[albireo]

Next they should do infraredscale.

Be bolder, Harman. Give us Harman Radioscale in sheet film, for those fat, long tones.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

I'm echoing another commenter, this is not something you tease and then release. You just drop it and move on. The people who want to shoot red pictures will be happy, the rest of us will ignore it.

 

[dcy]

I am definitely disappointed.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I beat them to it with my own version of Phoenix Red 120 SFX in sheet film would have been better.

 

[Kino]

I like Harman products, but... ah... no...

 

[Sharktooth]

I'm guessing there was another manufacturing screw-up, so we're going to be getting a "NEW" limited edition Redscale film. Yippee!!

I'm trying to figure out if sarcastic irony is the right term. My tongue was firmly in cheek when I posted that, but we're obviously living in a different world these days. ...... Sigh

 

[ChrisGalway]

In Harman's Phoenix launch video they (marketing!) claimed that Phoenix was developed from start to finish in "12 short months" ... although I confess I do not know what a "short" month is. The launch date ... after endless hype ... was 1 December 2023.

So here we are, 17th June 2025, more than 18 months later and NO IMPROVED PRODUCT. 12 "short" months to make Phoenix ... 18 months later, nothing new.

I suspect that the original Phoenix project was at least 5 years in the pipeline, not 12 "short" months, and that Harman's excellent technologists are embarrassed by the antics of their marketing department. I hope we see an improved product by 2030, or soon after.