Harman Photo 17th June announcement. Any ideas what this might be?

[Ian Grant]

Are you suggesting that Harman has so much Phoenix coated that they are afraid they won't be able to sell it and are holding back on introducing the improved version until they run out of existing inventory?

That would be really odd. They've sold the first batch in a few months, so they are obviously capable of coating small enough batches that this shouldn't be a problem.

Besides, a lot of people said they hoped Phoenix would stick around even when Harman had improved C-41 film(s).

No, rather harking back to Ilford/Harman's own comment that they wanted the revenue in terms of profit from Phoenix film sales to be ploughed back into continued research and development, unsold film doesn't do that.

Perhaps you missed my point that labs really don't like the film, and a very high percentage of C41 films are lab processed. It't not the film processing itself, rather its just the minilab software is not designed to interpret the scans.

Realism is it was a proof of concept, that Ilford/Harman could once again after roughly 60 years coat a colour film, a step in R&D.

I don't think that's an entirely accurate reading - there is clearly a limit to how big the market is for any one experimental film (and how many are buying to support Harman vs buying it on its own merits), but there are lots of other experimentalist niches e.g. redscale etc - and if Harman can pick up enough from those too, then it'll definitely speed along the work on Phoenix 2.0. There's clearly a lot going on in the background too (i.e. the work from which Kentmere 200 has spun out from).

You are right, there's a very small market for an experimental film. You seem to be echoing my thoughts in a contradictory way that agrees.

The feedback I've had on Kentmere 200 is it's a very nice film, leagues better than the Kentmere 400. But I can't comment personally as I;m predominantly an LF shooter and stick to my film choices for years, maybe decades,

The Phoenix choice of film speed at 200 ISO is I think right, For some years I shot Fuji Superia 200 35mm, snapshots in a Leica M3, more serious work with a Pentax, but the quality was always amazing.

Ian

 

[dcy]

The feedback I've had on Kentmere 200 is it's a very nice film, leagues better than the Kentmere 400. But I can't comment personally as I;m predominantly an LF shooter and stick to my film choices for years, maybe decades,

Sorry for the tangent, but I'd be interested to know what makes Kentmere 200 leagues better than Kentmere 400. Even if it's just hearsay (but if you have a link to an article or video, that'd be great).

Have you heard anything about how Kentmere 200 compares to its other cousin, Kentmere 100?

 

[brbo]

Perhaps you missed my point that labs really don't like the film, and a very high percentage of C41 films are lab processed. It't not the film processing itself, rather its just the minilab software is not designed to interpret the scans.

I don't understand why you would think that I missed that. You said that "we" overlooked the fact that this version of Phoenix won't sell anymore if/when Harman comes up with the improved version. Labs having trouble scanning Phoenix can't be the reason for sticking to this version/delaying the introduction of the improved version. Oh, I have a Noritsu minilab scanner and at least on Noritsu scanners Phoenix maybe takes an additional minute of time (report here). Labs will soon have a much bigger problem than scanning Phoenix anyway. None of the scanners they are using are being produced anymore and spare parts are running slowly but surely...

So, rather than inventing reasons that don't make much sense I would just accept that the most probable reason why we haven't seen a new version of Phoenix is that a significant enough step towards a better negative colour film hasn't been made by their R&D yet. Artificially delaying new film with the imminent release of Orwo NC200 and Lucky Color 200 would seems pretty risky and stupid. I don't think people at Harman are stupid.

 

[Sharktooth]

This whole Harman redscale film is worse than a joke. What’s so aggravating is the blatant fraud being perpetrated here through a deceitful marketing campaign.

Let’s be real. We all know that Harman is trying to develop a new colour film, and that’s by no means an easy task. What is outrageous is that they’re clearly trying to sell defective prototype stock as some sort of “Unique and Useful” product to the mass market, instead of being honest about what it really is (just leftover waste junk).

If Harman was honest about this, they would state clearly that this was defective material, and sell it at a discount. In this way, the consumer would be aware that this is really just experimental stuff, and not ready for prime-time. It could be treated like a Kickstarter program, but people would be aware what they were getting for their money. If you choose to support Harman in their film development efforts, then you’d be able to do so.

Instead, what Harman has done is sent out a pile of this reject film material for free to a large group of social media influencers to play with. Sure, you can get some interesting results from any film, if you use your imagination, but it’s disingenuous to say that a redscale film is somehow a great new product. Every roll of this “new” redscale film from Harman is going to be scanned, and every scan can be manipulated in many ways to get differing colour results. Any standard colour film can be scanned and manipulated in software to produce a “redscale” effect. There is no need to have a special rescale film to achieve this result. It’s all just marketing hogwash.

Some may call it a gimmick, but I’d rather just call this a scam. The price for this new 120 Red Film at B&H is currently $12.99 US. A 5 pack of Kodak Gold is currently $42.95 ($8.59 per roll) US. There is absolutely no justification to sell Red at such a high price. This scam will not be supported by me. If Harman keeps up with this deceitful marketing campaign, they’ll put their whole business at risk. People are going to eventually figure out that they’re being scammed, and this whole venture is going to blow up in their face. That’s why you never see Kodak or Fuji selling substandard product. They know that their reputation is everything, and it doesn’t take much to lose it all.

… and I don’t want to hear from people who’ve received free Harman film to play with. You’re perpetuating the scam when you don’t identify it as what it really is.

 

[dcy]

This whole Harman redscale film is worse than a joke. What’s so aggravating is the blatant fraud being perpetrated here through a deceitful marketing campaign.

Let’s be real. We all know that Harman is trying to develop a new colour film, and that’s by no means an easy task. What is outrageous is that they’re clearly trying to sell defective prototype stock as some sort of “Unique and Useful” product to the mass market, instead of being honest about what it really is (just leftover waste junk).

Hold on a second. There is absolutely nothing deceitful, let alone fraudulent here, and I think you're crossing a line by accusing a company of perpetrating fraud just because you don't like the product. Harman was 100% clear about what Phoenix is from day 1. That it is a prototype was emphasized front and center. I have never heard of anyone say that they bought Phoenix thinking it was a finished product, or that it'd match Kodak Gold. If YOU think it's junk, don't buy it.

Personally, I really prefer to fund R&D this way than through a kickstarter. The way Harman has chosen to fund R&D, I get to have a product right now, with full understanding of its limitations.

THIS is what their website says:

I do not see how they can be more honest or clearer than that.

Any standard colour film can be scanned and manipulated in software to produce a “redscale” effect. There is no need to have a special rescale film to achieve this result. It’s all just marketing hogwash.

You don't get to decide what products other people buy. I could just as well say that film should not exist because the look of film can be emulated in software. The fact of the matter is that there are people who want to buy redscale film and you don't get to tell anyone that they're wrong for buying whatever they want to buy.

This scam will not be supported by me.

Not buying it was always allowed.

… and I don’t want to hear from people who’ve received free Harman film to play with.

That sounds like a "you" problem.

 

[thinkbrown]

........
That sounds like a "you" problem.

I'm glad someone put the effort into responding because I'd already given up

 

[Sharktooth]

THIS is what their website says:

View attachment 401095


I do not see how they can be more honest or clearer than that.

No, that's not what their website says about Red 120. Here is the direct link to the Harman page for Red 120 https://www.harmanphoto.co.uk/harma..._photo_brochure&___from_store=harman_photo_uk

Here is the link from B&H for Red in 120. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...echnology_1182329_red_125_redscale_color.html

There is no mention whatsoever that this is experimental development film. It's clearly a scam, folks.

 

[0x001688936CA08]

Did you hear about Kodak removing Remjet from Vision3? They've been scamming everyone this whole time with their experimental development remjet prototype nonsense. It's clearly a scam, folks.