For UK Ilford users

[R gould]

I have read else where that Foma prices will also be increased in the UK.
I is the price we must all pay for being silver based photographers, rather that than lose the makers of these fine materials,Richard

 

[eclarke]

Buy from whatever the film division becomes. Just look at how much Peres has made in bonuses along with his cronies if the company was split up the coating division could become profitable.

Agfa pulled out but there's still products being made by the Gevaert factory and the former Agfa coating line used to make Adox/Fotoimpex products. So there's hope.

Ian

I really hope so, while I use a lot of HP5 and like it, I like TMY the best...

 

[Harry Lime]

Shoot Ilford, shoot Adox, shoot Foma, shoot Rollei, et al keep the demand going and hopefully some companies will survive.

Buy Kodak, of you want to continue to shoot Kodak.
They will make it as long, as people buy it.

 

[hpulley]

Buy Kodak, of you want to continue to shoot Kodak.
They will make it as long, as people buy it.

By all means! I buy TMAX and HC-110, whatever works best for me.

 

[alistair.o]

Hi,

Thanks for starting this thread.

Can I just say from the outset that I buy from Matt @ AG and the 7dayshop and Freestyle USA. So, I am not tied and do not feel beholden to a particular supplier but, naturally, I would rather buy within the UK and support my own economy. But there is no 'my economy' anymore! I do not live in a hamlet, I do live in a Global Community and if I stand still for one moment financially then I am a target for someone who wants to make me their meal ticket. We are all influenced by world economics.

Take a look at this thread:-

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=295381&highlight=freestyle

When Kodak do this (i.e. Arista) for it is Tri-X 400 (no doubt) and Ilford sell cheaper in the USA, then I have to do what is right for my personal economy and take advantage of living in this Global Community. Kodak sell - I buy; Ilford sell - I buy.

I am just totting up to see if I need any more Ian. When are you hoping to place the order?

Alistair

 

[lorriman]

I'm scratching my head over the fact that Ilford products get sent to the U.S., presumably via refrigerated shipping, and yet despite the extra shipping expense we can buy at substantially lower prices from U.S. firms than UK customers get from UK firms, despite the fact that no overseas shipping is involved. I would have imagined that shipping was one of the major components of the final prices we pay, but maybe I am wrong. In any case, Ian has the right idea—let the free market do its work and buy from the USA. If enough UK customers did that it would certainly encourage British distributors to charge less.

The UK is an regulation-heavy, space-premium country with lots of stealth taxes. I suspect most of the price difference, if it really is down to the distributors, is due to the US being inevitably a heck of a lot cheaper and maybe even more efficient. But we should perhaps also consider the recent big drop in the dollar.

 

[pentaxuser]

The UK is an regulation-heavy, space-premium country with lots of stealth taxes. I suspect most of the price difference, if it really is down to the distributors, is due to the US being inevitably a heck of a lot cheaper and maybe even more efficient. But we should perhaps also consider the recent big drop in the dollar.

A big drop in the dollar against the pound( Dollar devaluation) makes Ilford products produced in the UK more expensive for the U.S customers. Can you say what these regulation heavy, space premium aspects of the U.K. and stealth taxes in the U.K are and how they impinge on Ilford U.K. prices but somehow free Ilford to charge less in the U.S.?

I remain confused

pentaxuser

 

[Tlee]

Ilford prices

Hi Ian are you still looking to import film if so put me down for 2x100 delta 100 sheets 5x4
Tony

 

[Matt5791]

Thought I would put a few thoughts and facts down.

"Dealer Agreements"
Harman have a very transparant arrangement with UK dealers: everyone has the same price. I don't believe there are any arrangements in place - the market isn't really big enough for that. Someone compared to Inkjet paper and how Harman express undercuts dealers - the market for inkjet is completely different and is populated by many many competitors, and is much more complex. The purpose of Harman Express was to counter the demise of outlets selling traditional Ilford products - a place where the range is always available in a market where dealers like Jessops wont hold stock.

UK Dealer "Collusion"
Jessops, for example, make a very large margin on Ilford film when they sell a roll for £6. We at Ag photographic do not when we sell for £3.18! And we certainly don't collude with other dealers - infact we've never even spoken to another dealer, other than a couple of causual emails with Martin at Silverprint. Oh, and I speak to Nova but that's only because we sell the Permajet inkjet paper.

Support Harman
There may be price differences between the UK and US and it may be fairly substantial for a small number of products - if anyone should be annoyed it should be people like me!! but we still sell plenty of Ilford sheet film as, even at that price it represents good value. And that is the key word VALUE. Ilford products may be more costly than some others, but the value they represent and, critically, the value the Ilford brand offers in general, is simply not matched by any other manufacturer in this arena.

With the price of Silver now around $48/ounce (note: it was $4 an ounce when Ilford had the management buyout in 2004) I am sure we will face more price increases - Ilford is more exposed than the likes of Kodak as Kodak can amortise the cost of silver across a broader and more diverse range of products, they don't make B&W paper which is the product that really uses an awful lot of silver, and, Silver is priced in $ USD so Harman has a stronger $ to factor in too and the fluctuation of the exchange rate - but Ilford products will still represent excellent value, and we will offer them as competitvely as possible.

Knowing the decency of the 6 people who own and run Harman/Ilford, I am sure, if the price of silver falls, so too will the prices.

Matt

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Matt,

I think Silverprint could be considered an important institution as well as a commercial enterprise.

Tom

 

[lorriman]

A big drop in the dollar against the pound( Dollar devaluation) makes Ilford products produced in the UK more expensive for the U.S customers. Can you say what these regulation heavy, space premium aspects of the U.K. and stealth taxes in the U.K are and how they impinge on Ilford U.K. prices but somehow free Ilford to charge less in the U.S.?

I remain confused

pentaxuser

The distribution costs in dollars remain the same in the US, but the dollar is now cheaper. This will eventually correct as inflationary pressure raises the US distribution costs but that won't happen for a year or so. If it's the distributors not Ilford, that are the main cost then perhaps you can see that could mean cheaper prices in the US. Also the issue with red tape etc. Ie, UK distributors=expensive, US distributors=cheap. The basic price from Ilford could be 1/4 or even 1/8th the total: insignificant.

As for specific examples: the cost of space/storage in the UK is high because there is no land. The US is just tracts of emptiness in comparison: storage costs little. As for regulation: I'm surprised I even have to mention it. Tax laws in the UK are described by tax experts as "incomprehensibly complex". That produces a cost to business. EU regulation is similarly onerous. The US is going the same way (ie. Sarbanes-Oxley) but isn't there yet.

 

[Ian Grant]

It didn't last time after the Bunker Hunt fiasco, so it's very unlikely to do so in the future.

What's being lost is we can support Harman by saving our money and buying at far cheaper prices from the US. That's the issue that Harman won't address and rectify.

Why should customers in the UK/EU and other areas subsides the US market, and why are Kodak & Fuji cheating us as well ?

Ian

 

[wogster]

The UK is an regulation-heavy, space-premium country with lots of stealth taxes. I suspect most of the price difference, if it really is down to the distributors, is due to the US being inevitably a heck of a lot cheaper and maybe even more efficient. But we should perhaps also consider the recent big drop in the dollar.

Americans love to whine about their high taxes, even though they have some of the lowest in the world. With the amount of government debt in the US skyrocketing, expect this to change, it's not going to be pretty.

The real issue though, is when ordering from the US, those in the UK need to consider that there will be customs and brokerage fees, and you still need to pay the VAT, not up on British tax law, but in some places you need to pay VAT on the customs and brokerage fees as well. I'm in Canada and I rarely find when I consider the extra fees it being worth ordering from the US. It can be tricky though, if the item is manufactured in the UK, then shipped to the US, then exported back to the UK, you probably do not need to pay customs, but the clearing may be complex and you need to pay more in brokerage fees.....

 

[hpulley]

It is COMPLETELY worth it for me to buy from B&H with Purolator shipping rather than buying from Canadian retailers or mail order. It is sad but true. FP4+ 120 is $3.69/roll USD at B&H or $5.99/roll CND at Henrys. For 20 rolls, all totalled with $8.22 Purolator ground (2-3 days, same as Expresspost) shipping and taxes and duties of $16.38 it is $98.40 USD (about $95.50 CND) while at Henrys it is $119.80 plus $9.95 shipping for a total of $129.75. So I save $35. Worth it? Why not? The shipping is the same so why not save $35. Or put another way, I can get 28 rolls of FP4+ 120 from B&H for the price of 20 rolls from Henrys. Delta 3200 is an even bigger difference, $4.05 USD at B&H or $6.99 at Henrys.

Paper even moreso, for 11x14" multigrade warmtone fiber glossy it is $105 USD at B&H or $162 CND at Henrys. Adding the 20 rolls of FP4+ to the 11x14" 50 sheets of paper, the total orders even with shipping for the oversized 11x14" box and taxes are $223 at B&H or $292 at Henrys or almost $70 saved. Not as shocking as those in the UK and Europe but still a lot considering the Canadian dollar is higher than the greenback.

 

[Роберт]

A regular internet shop in NL:

ILFORD Delta 3200 Pro 135-36 1-stuks €8,50

I am not considering to pay these prices.

If I am looking at Tri-X 400 I can have it for exactly half price and my favorite shop has RPX 400 for Eur. 2,45.
Both these Kodak and Rollei films can be pushed to E.I. 1600 too.

 

[wogster]

It is COMPLETELY worth it for me to buy from B&H with Purolator shipping rather than buying from Canadian retailers or mail order. It is sad but true. FP4+ 120 is $3.69/roll USD at B&H or $5.99/roll CND at Henrys. For 20 rolls, all totalled with $8.22 Purolator ground (2-3 days, same as Expresspost) shipping and taxes and duties of $16.38 it is $98.40 USD (about $95.50 CND) while at Henrys it is $119.80 plus $9.95 shipping for a total of $129.75. So I save $35. Worth it? Why not? The shipping is the same so why not save $35. Or put another way, I can get 28 rolls of FP4+ 120 from B&H for the price of 20 rolls from Henrys. Delta 3200 is an even bigger difference, $4.05 USD at B&H or $6.99 at Henrys.

Paper even moreso, for 11x14" multigrade warmtone fiber glossy it is $105 USD at B&H or $162 CND at Henrys. Adding the 20 rolls of FP4+ to the 11x14" 50 sheets of paper, the total orders even with shipping for the oversized 11x14" box and taxes are $223 at B&H or $292 at Henrys or almost $70 saved. Not as shocking as those in the UK and Europe but still a lot considering the Canadian dollar is higher than the greenback.

I wonder if B&H is using a logistics carrier, because the amount of duties and brokerage is extremely low. And I was able to order an item, that normally could not be shipped across a border, so they could be using a distributor as well.






Having said that, Henry's isn't exactly known for being cheap.

 

[lorriman]

The real issue though, is when ordering from the US, those in the UK need to consider that there will be customs and brokerage fees, and you still need to pay the VAT, not up on British tax law, but in some places you need to pay VAT on the customs and brokerage fees as well.

Yes, in the UK: VAT is on the 'duty' taxed (as well as on postage as is the duty). They all multiply against each other. The only brokerage is the mailer handling fee of £8 (or £13.50 parcel force *express*), which isn't taxed but added to the total.

As a rule of thumb you can expect between 26% to 34% on top of the nominal total. So if the product cost $50+$20 postage then that's about $93 all in.

However, that doesn't include currency conversion or returns. I would add another 10% to notionally cover those. If surface mail then another 5% to cover losses (or 10% to be conservative).

As it happens I've made an order with all this in mind and I still make a significant saving because I can't buy the rolls of refrigerated but expired film in the UK at such a deep discount to recent UK film.

 

[hpulley]

I wonder if B&H is using a logistics carrier, because the amount of duties and brokerage is extremely low. And I was able to order an item, that normally could not be shipped across a border, so they could be using a distributor as well.

Having said that, Henry's isn't exactly known for being cheap.

I think Purolator built a logisters centre and warehouse just for B&H in Mississauga. It gives them cheaper shipping than Canada Post Xpresspost, as fast and the duty and taxes are very low as you say.

Know anything cheaper than Henry's? A local camera shop in Waterloo does have HP5+ at a decent price so I buy it there when I need film on short notice but otherwise I only know of higher prices than Henry's (e.g. Bigcameraworkshops is $6.10/roll for FP4+, not $5.99).

 

[wogster]

I think Purolator built a logisters centre and warehouse just for B&H in Mississauga. It gives them cheaper shipping than Canada Post Xpresspost, as fast and the duty and taxes are very low as you say.

Know anything cheaper than Henry's? A local camera shop in Waterloo does have HP5+ at a decent price so I buy it there when I need film on short notice but otherwise I only know of higher prices than Henry's (e.g. Bigcameraworkshops is $6.10/roll for FP4+, not $5.99).

Check the return address, if it's 1151 Martingrove Rd, Etobicoke, ON then it's Purolator Logistics.....

How logistics works is quite simple. You take a company like B&H, they get quite a few Canadian orders, they put a delivery label on each item, pack them all together, on skids, they ship the skids to a central US facility, these are all put in a trailer, and a customs manifest is created for the entire trailer, this then gets cleared as a single shipment, the logistics carrier does their own clearing, so the costs to clear an item drops from $50 to 50¢. Then the trailer goes from the border to a carrier hub, where it's broken apart and each item is put into the delivery stream just like a local delivery. From New York it's more likely to go to the Montreal Hub, then Toronto.

Henry's isn't the cheapest and they are often not the most expensive.....

 

[Adrian Twiss]

Thought I would put a few thoughts and facts down.

"Dealer Agreements"
Harman have a very transparant arrangement with UK dealers: everyone has the same price. I don't believe there are any arrangements in place - the market isn't really big enough for that. Someone compared to Inkjet paper and how Harman express undercuts dealers - the market for inkjet is completely different and is populated by many many competitors, and is much more complex. The purpose of Harman Express was to counter the demise of outlets selling traditional Ilford products - a place where the range is always available in a market where dealers like Jessops wont hold stock.

UK Dealer "Collusion"
Jessops, for example, make a very large margin on Ilford film when they sell a roll for £6. We at Ag photographic do not when we sell for £3.18! And we certainly don't collude with other dealers - infact we've never even spoken to another dealer, other than a couple of causual emails with Martin at Silverprint. Oh, and I speak to Nova but that's only because we sell the Permajet inkjet paper.

Support Harman
There may be price differences between the UK and US and it may be fairly substantial for a small number of products - if anyone should be annoyed it should be people like me!! but we still sell plenty of Ilford sheet film as, even at that price it represents good value. And that is the key word VALUE. Ilford products may be more costly than some others, but the value they represent and, critically, the value the Ilford brand offers in general, is simply not matched by any other manufacturer in this arena.

With the price of Silver now around $48/ounce (note: it was $4 an ounce when Ilford had the management buyout in 2004) I am sure we will face more price increases - Ilford is more exposed than the likes of Kodak as Kodak can amortise the cost of silver across a broader and more diverse range of products, they don't make B&W paper which is the product that really uses an awful lot of silver, and, Silver is priced in $ USD so Harman has a stronger $ to factor in too and the fluctuation of the exchange rate - but Ilford products will still represent excellent value, and we will offer them as competitvely as possible.

Knowing the decency of the 6 people who own and run Harman/Ilford, I am sure, if the price of silver falls, so too will the prices.

Matt

Whilst I would nt dare to impune the decency of Ilford's owners the price of silver has now dropped to under $20 per troy ounce but I have yet to see a price drop.

 

[pentaxuser]

Whilst I would nt dare to impune the decency of Ilford's owners the price of silver has now dropped to under $20 per troy ounce but I have yet to see a price drop.

You have taken the words out of my mouth, Adrian. I had just briefly gone through the posts on this subject and came across Matt's from Ag way back in May 2011 where he quotes $48 an ounce and was about to post on this when you have done it for me. Certainly in the posts that Simon Galley made on this subject he seemed keen to quote the meteoric rise in silver price as being a major factor in the fact that we complained about "our pips being severely squeezed"

pentaxuser

 

[Regular Rod]

Naturally it would be a delight to us all if ILFORD films cost less but we can use this to our photographic advantage...

We can go out now and take more care than ever with exposure, composition, light etc. etc. so waste less film. Also by using compensating developers it means we don't need to waste more film in bracketing exposure. Film can now last longer so the cost can just about be under control.

RR

 

[snallan]

A spot price under $20 an ounce for silver is all well and good, but is of little help to Harman/Ilford if they had to buy the stock they are currently using at $30 or $40 an ounce. In addition to which, the Dollar/Sterling exchange rates have not been as advantageous over the last year for a UK company as they are today.

 

[paul_c5x4]

It is also worth bearing in mind increases in other costs. Energy prices continue to rise at levels well above inflation as has the cost of many of the other raw materials used in the manufacture of films/paper.

 

[Adrian Twiss]

I must confess I only thought about the severe energy price increases after I posted my possibly rather caustic observation. My last conversation with an Ilford representative was at the Focus on Imaging Expo in Birmingham in 2011 and we discussed the price of silver then. I know they buy their silver in bulk but imagined (possibly incorrectly) that they had used up their stocks and may be paying less for silver now.