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MARTIE

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Dear All,

I have read this thread and am happy to reply:

We at HARMAN technology make quality photo products, we also believe that our products are priced fairly and offer value for money all over the world. With the internet it is very easy to compare pricing around the world from the comfort of your own home. The difficulty and complexity of worldwide pricing are the factors that can and do build in differentials. The question to ask always is 'are you comparing apples with apples'?

I have seen some reference to some of these factors in the thread :

A) Changes in currency exchange rates

B) Cost and complexity of shipping : intercontinental / refrigerated / inter country and local ( who pays for what ?)

C) Import duties

D) National taxes and especially local / national sales taxes

E) Market specific products to meet local legislation

F) Market place practice ?

Example : In the USA historically, Tri-X was always sold by KODAK at a lower price than PLUS X : When we started exporting to the USA many years ago our HP and FP products obviously reflected that differential, it still exists to this day, in every other market in the world we sell HP and FP at the same price, hence the result 'a differential' on a local market anomaly.

What we can and do is to set prices ex.factory that are fair and equatable, if we were to try and 'adjust' pricing in each market so that no differentials existed we would need to change our prices every week, this is not practicle on over 2,000 products, nor would our distributors and resellers welcome having to adjust prices on their systems every week, as all price changes involve significant resource, database adjustments, websites etc, etc.

Just after a price increase, like we have just had, you may have some markets that sell through stock at the price related to what the stock was purchased at ( pre-increase ) and some who apply the increases as soon as they are notified. When prices are changed it also is the time that you would have the opportunity to correct some previous inherited differentials that had occurred.

Most important of all you cannot control the margins that distributors and resellers have to apply to to our products, and in most markets it is illegal to do so. Legislation rightly exists in most markets to protect competition on the sales of goods to ensure that the consumer gets the best value.

We are keenly aware that the ultimate sanction of any consumer is to choose whether to purchase a product from company A or company B and that is based on a raft of criteria where value for money is almost always taken into account, we are also aware that the internet and specialist suppliers have opened up routes where product flows from one country to another again that choice is open to the consumer.

People made reference to cameras and other products, our industry is not alone and of course we now live in a global market place. I am pretty sure that many American readers of this did not pay $ 9.72 per gallon when they filled up their car this morning as I did, ( our gallon is a little bigger ) and I am sure we have some Icelandic Apuggers and I am pretty sure he is paying three times what I will for a beer on the way home tonight.

We do realise how important this issue is, and we most certainly care when our customers are unhappy just as much as when they are happy. We always realise you have a choice, we always listen, we hopefully engage, and we try the very best to maintain and grow our reputation.


Simon Galley ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology LImited :

While I am comfortable paying more for US products than citizens of the US, you must admit there is something fundamentally wrong when as a UK citizen you pay more for UK products than citizens in the US?

Does Ilford have any idea just how unfair their pricing policy is towards UK customers and dealers?

LOYALTY goes both ways, and Ilfords contempt for its domestic market is pushing customer loyalty from the ridiculous to beyond the sublime.

I hope Ilford find it all worthwhile.
 
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Ian Grant

Ian Grant

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Give me a Capon, and some roguish companions

A coating machine and a bottle of sac

Take me to the Ale house, take me to the whore house . . . . . . . . . . . :smile: . . . . . . . . .:smile: :smile: . . . . :smile:

And I'll coat film and paper while I lye on my back :D



Joking apart there are discussions behind the scene.

Ian
 

JayGannon

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While I am comfortable paying more for US products than citizens of the US, you must admit there is something fundamentally wrong when as a UK citizen you pay more for UK products than citizens in the US?

Does Ilford have any idea just how unfair their pricing policy is towards UK customers and dealers?

LOYALTY goes both ways, and Ilfords contempt for its domestic market is pushing customer loyalty from the ridiculous to beyond the sublime.

I hope Ilford find it all worthwhile.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that Ilford does not set the retail price. The market and the distribution chain does. The distributers and the retailers are the people that you should be angry at, their loading markup onto the UK product thus making it expensive, thats what Simon just said in corporate speak.
 

pentaxuser

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Everyone seems to be forgetting that Ilford does not set the retail price. The market and the distribution chain does. The distributers and the retailers are the people that you should be angry at, their loading markup onto the UK product thus making it expensive, thats what Simon just said in corporate speak.

When the retail price in the U.K. is consistently and substantially higher than in the U.S. does this mean that we have a greedier and possibly price fixing cartel of retailers here compared to the U.S. where the retailers are either have much more integrity, take a more moral stand towards their customers and/pr are more frightened of price fixing laws?

pentaxuser
 

railwayman3

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I'm sorry to be a troll, but Ilford does set their price in their own shop atleast, and they think what they charge there is fair. It says so, just under the logo.

http://www.harmanexpress.com/prods/3/ILFORD-Film.htm

You have beaten me by a few minutes to make a similar posting! The current price of a 120 FP4+ on Harmanexpress is £4.33 (discounted to £3.94 if you buy 10).

I appreciate what Simon says about the other factors which influence pricing, but that "factory price" is still far more the OP's price quoted from a US supplier, even making every allowance. And the US price must surely include, at least, transport costs and wholesalers and dealers profits.

There's no one more loyal to Ilford and Harman than myself, but there's something here which leaves a very uncomfortable feeling. I've no intention at the moment of changing from Ilford products...I have a freezer full, but, like most people nowdays, funds for hobbies are not unlimited, so, when this needs replenishing, I shall have to look carefully at priorities and options. :sad:
 

jerry lebens

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I'm sorry to be a troll, but Ilford does set their price in their own shop atleast, and they think what they charge there is fair. It says so, just under the logo.

http://www.harmanexpress.com/prods/3/ILFORD-Film.htm

Actually, I don't think they do - they have longstanding contracts which prevent them from undercutting retailer's film and photo paper prices.

If you look at the discounts available on the new inkjet products, on the other hand, you'll find that Harman do undercut their retailers. This is because these new products don't come under the old contracts, leaving Harman free to set it's own prices.

Regards
Jerry
 

JayGannon

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The factory store will be bound by distributer pricing agreements to ensure that they dont undercut retailers thus putting their distributers out of business, so again its the distributers/retailers who you anger should be directed at.
 

Uncle Bill

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Well, it's been like that in Canada for longer than I care to remember. Off the top of my head, b&w film, brand-name filters and Domke bags are more than double the B&H price on Toronto street. I hope you have no moral qualms about procuring the goods overseas.

:whistling:

Ever since B&H started shipping from a warehouse in Rexdale On. and charging $8 Purolator ground, I started buying my film from them.
 

Chazzy

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I'm scratching my head over the fact that Ilford products get sent to the U.S., presumably via refrigerated shipping, and yet despite the extra shipping expense we can buy at substantially lower prices from U.S. firms than UK customers get from UK firms, despite the fact that no overseas shipping is involved. I would have imagined that shipping was one of the major components of the final prices we pay, but maybe I am wrong. In any case, Ian has the right idea—let the free market do its work and buy from the USA. If enough UK customers did that it would certainly encourage British distributors to charge less.
 

MattKing

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Are there UK distributors, or does Ilford/Harmann do their own distribution in the UK?
 

pentaxuser

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The factory store will be bound by distributer pricing agreements to ensure that they dont undercut retailers thus putting their distributers out of business, so again its the distributers/retailers who you anger should be directed at.

So the problem of higher prices in the U.K. compared to the U.S is solely down to retailers and distributors who are just plain greedy?

Well I wished I lived in a land where the retailers and distributors are fair minded such as the U.S.

It can't be a North American thing as it seems the fair-mindedness thing stops at the 49th parallel. Maybe this fairness is written into the U.S. constitution but not the Canadian one.

Sorry about this, you Canadian folks. It must be your stronger links with the U.K. that allows you to be afflicted with a similar set of dastardly dealers. It has to be in the genes that you got from your U.K. forefathers :sad:

But wait, the U. S. had similar forefathers. Maybe those nasty genes were washed away with the tea thrown into Boston harbour in 1776.

Whatever the explanation is, there is no denying that you U.S. folks are lucky people.

pentaxuser
 

hpulley

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All I know is I order my Ilford from south of the border too, B&H to the rescue most of the time. Prices are 10-100% higher here which is simply crazy. With $8 ground shipping (cheaper than shipping from Canadian mail order if you can believe it) in 2-3 days I know where to get my stuff... and I've said as much to retailers up here. Sadly they will probably just sell digital soon but that isn't my fault, they can match prices if they want my business.
 
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MattKing

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All I know is I order my Ilford from south of the border too, B&H to the rescue most of the time. Prices are 10-100% higher here which is simply crazy. With $8 ground shipping (cheaper than shipping from Canadian mail order if you can believe it) in 2-3 days I know where to get my stuff... and I've said as much to retailers up here. Sadly they will probably just sell digital soon but that isn't my fault, they can match prices if they want my business.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rob Skeoch (an APUG advertiser and Ilford retailer in Canada) pays wholesale as much or nearly as much for his inventory as B & H sells it for.

Here is Rob's website:

http://www.bigcameraworkshops.com/default2.asp
 

hpulley

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I wouldn't be surprised if Rob Skeoch (an APUG advertiser and Ilford retailer in Canada) pays wholesale as much or nearly as much for his inventory as B & H sells it for.

Here is Rob's website:

http://www.bigcameraworkshops.com/default2.asp

I know and I feel like a donkey for not supporting local guys but I wish they could work out their prices somehow with their distributors. It is cheaper to buy from the elephant in NYC and I just can't afford to pay more with the amount that I shoot and print. If I were a less crummy shooter using less frames to get the shot I want and a less crappy printer using less paper to get the print I want (last print took an embarassing number of work prints) then I could get by with paying a bit more but I shoot how I shoot and I print how I print... and I find there is no point in buying cheap paper as it doesn't work to do the work prints on cheap paper and the final prints on good paper, you have to start the exposure and contrast and burning and dodging experiments all over again...
 

Keith Tapscott.

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You have beaten me by a few minutes to make a similar posting! The current price of a 120 FP4+ on Harmanexpress is £4.33 (discounted to £3.94 if you buy 10).



There's no one more loyal to Ilford and Harman than myself, but there's something here which leaves a very uncomfortable feeling.

I've no intention at the moment of changing from Ilford products...I have a freezer full, but, like most people nowdays, funds for hobbies are not unlimited, so, when this needs replenishing, I shall have to look carefully at priorities and options. :sad:
At least my local photo store is selling Ilford 120 rolls at £2.75 each. With the prices I am seeing on line, I will be buying a bulk of the Ilford films locally while their price holds.
 

railwayman3

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The factory store will be bound by distributer pricing agreements to ensure that they dont undercut retailers thus putting their distributers out of business, so again its the distributers/retailers who you anger should be directed at.

That possibility occurred to me when I made my previous postings. I'm afraid that it just adds to my uncomfortable feeling that someone, somewhere, is ripping us off.

It would just be good to feel that we are paying the "right" amount to get a fair deal ourselves and give Ilford, (and the distributors if involved), a fair profit, and that is what bothers me as much as the price. Whether this fair price is £1 per film or £10 per film, we can then at least concentrate on gearing our film use and the rest of our hobby to a proper budget.

I don't have time to get angry with wholesalers, distributors or Ilford themselves, it's less stressful to vote with my wallet. :wink:
 
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Steve Roberts

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At least my local photo store is selling Ilford 120 rolls at £2.75 each. With the prices I am seeing on line, I will be buying a bulk of the Ilford films locally while their price holds.

Keith,
I presume you're referring to a certain store in Frankfort Gate. They do seem to be surprisingly competitive at times. However, I was disappointed to see about a weeke ago that the analogue section in the window had disappeared. There's a display old photo products and equipment inside the shop - wouldn't it be good if some of that made its way into the window to raise awareness of our kind of photography?
Best wishes,
Steve
 
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Ian Grant

Ian Grant

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Sadly, here in the US, the financial press predicts the demise of Kodak by 2012.. What do we do?

Buy from whatever the film division becomes. Just look at how much Peres has made in bonuses along with his cronies if the company was split up the coating division could become profitable.

Agfa pulled out but there's still products being made by the Gevaert factory and the former Agfa coating line used to make Adox/Fotoimpex products. So there's hope.

Ian
 

Keith Tapscott.

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Sadly, here in the US, the financial press predicts the demise of Kodak by 2012..

What do we do?

Hope and pray that a group of former Kodak employees get together and start up their own niche business in manufacturing films and papers. :wink:
 
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Keith Tapscott.

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I have read else where that Foma prices will also be increased in the UK.
I expect it will not be long before other manufacturers raise their prices as well. :sad:
 
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