Fomapan R 100 reversal with D19 anyone?

[DeletedAcct1]

Nope, it's not reagent grade, it's technical grade. Who knows what other stuff is in there. I'm aware of D67, I've used it in the past. It's not that D19/D67 is a bad developer in general. Fog can be a problem only when the Dmax of a film has a rather low value, as is the case of Fomapan R 100. So, perhaps if I used benzotriazole, I'd get a little less fog, so a bit more density. Fomadon LQR, being a PQ developer likely has some and is what is used as a developer in the kit.

You need this
https://www.restauro-online.com/Web...A8/2ABA/477B/Honeywell_H2SO4_puriss._p.a..JPG

 

[Anon Ymous]

Is the film expired? And if yes, how much is expired?
How it was stored?
At what temp do you run your process?
Constant inversions?
Have you tried Ilford PQ Universal?

The film was fresh, well within date, just bought off Fotoimpex. My process ran at 20°C, tank inversion was 5'' every 30'' for developers, the bleach was continuously inverted. I haven't tried PQ universal with this film, it was the first time I used it.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

The film was fresh, well within date, just bought off Fotoimpex. My process ran at 20°C, tank inversion was 5'' every 30'' for developers, the bleach was continuously inverted. I haven't tried PQ universal with this film, it was the first time I used it.

Fomadon LQR isn't the same as the FD in the Foma kit.
You could very well add some other antifog in the FD, maybe lowering the bromide amount.
Bellini sells these:
https://www.bellinifoto.it/prodotto/antivelo-carta-1-fenil-5-mercapto-tetrazolo/
https://www.bellinifoto.it/prodotto/antivelo-pellicola-benzotriazolo/

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

If i had
a) bleached long enough
b) a bleach that didn't have a rehalogenating effect
then my minimum density would be better.

As far as bleaching and rehalogenation are concerned, if they affected the low density regions as hypothesized then they would have also affected the high density regions. And that means what ever density you hope to loose in the low density regions you'll loose it also in the high density regions bringing down DMax. Isn't it?

 

[Anon Ymous]

@Alessandro Serrao Thanks for the links, they have some interesting raw chemicals.

@Raghu Kuvempunagar No, not necessarily. You see, this film has a uniform antihalation layer consisting of silver, but after FD there's a lot more silver on what will eventually become the highlights. I suspect whatever effect there is, is more pronounced in the highlights. And since you requested samples, well, here they are:

As I said before, these may look radically different at your monitor. The highlights may seem washed out, but they're salvageable. The last sample is a 100% crop of the second image, with very light sharpening applied. Grain is very fine as you can see. Some sharpness is lost when scanning.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

@Alessandro Serrao Thanks for the links, they have some interesting raw chemicals.

@Raghu Kuvempunagar No, not necessarily. You see, this film has a uniform antihalation layer consisting of silver, but after FD there's a lot more silver on what will eventually become the highlights. I suspect whatever effect there is, is more pronounced in the highlights. And since you requested samples, well, here they are:

View attachment 258425

View attachment 258426

View attachment 258427

As I said before, these may look radically different at your monitor. The highlights may seem washed out, but they're salvageable. The last sample is a 100% crop of the second image, with very light sharpening applied. Grain is very fine as you can see. Some sharpness is lost when scanning.

I see.
What you're referring to, with those images, is something like a dull slide.
To me it looks like a problem with the bleach (rehalogenating).
I'd try a purer form of sulfuric acid and a purer form of permanganate. Plus I'd use only distilled water for the bleach stage and both rinses before and after the bleach.
Another valid source of chemicals may be this:
https://www.labotech2000.it/
and this:
http://moersch-photochemie.de/moersch/webroot/files/Preisliste_online_2018final.pdf

 

[Anon Ymous]

I see.
What you're referring to, with those images, is something like a dull slide.
To me it looks like a problem with the bleach (rehalogenating).
I'd try a purer form of sulfuric acid and a purer form of permanganate. Plus I'd use only distilled water for the bleach stage and both rinses before and after the bleach.
Another valid source of chemicals may be this:
https://www.labotech2000.it/
and this:
http://moersch-photochemie.de/moersch/webroot/files/Preisliste_online_2018final.pdf

If these scenes had been shot at EI125 to 160, things would probably look better. At EI100, some highlights were shifted to the toe of the characteristic curve, where contrast becomes progressively lower. As a result, the highlights lost some brilliance.

For the record, I always mix my permanganate bleach with deionised water and my permanganate is reagent grade. My bisulfate on the other hand even looks a bit yellow.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

@Anon Ymous: thanks for the scanned images. If it is not too much of a trouble, can u take pic of the slides held against window light (or light table) with the phone camera and share the pic?

 

[Anon Ymous]

@Anon Ymous: thanks for the scanned images. If it is not too much of a trouble, can u take pic of the slides held against window light (or light table) with the phone camera and share the pic?

Tried it, but looks too ugly and is of no use...

 

[mohmad khatab]

I think the claim is about the optimal density for projection viewing and not in general. Not just Haist several others have made similar assertions. I guess flare is an important factor to consider in the context of projecting slides on a white panel. Maybe there are other factors too which affect the experience of viewing slides projected.

Thanks. The sulfuric acid quantity isn't very important. Less can be used, but the bleach becomes slower while keeping better if I recall correctly. There's a patent posted by Lachlan Young somewhere, which describes this.

Yes ,, I am speaking on the recommendations of (that patent) ,, I am not speaking from my head.
I am quoting to you the patent recommendations that set the pH = 1.4 and this number can only be achieved if you add from H to 8 mL of silvoric acid, based on practical experience ,,
Regarding the Bleach time, it is very normal (2 minutes) according to the plan, there is nothing unusual.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Friends, @Anon Ymous has done a great service to DIY reversal enthusiasts by sharing his experiences, sensitometric data and pictures. Last thing one would want to see is this thread degenerating into a rabble of no higher purpose than outshouting the other. I understand that it's a tense time in many parts of the world. Nevertheless let's try to maintain sanity and keep emotions under check in this interesting technical thread. My earnest request to you.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

If these scenes had been shot at EI125 to 160, things would probably look better. At EI100, some highlights were shifted to the toe of the characteristic curve, where contrast becomes progressively lower. As a result, the highlights lost some brilliance.

For the record, I always mix my permanganate bleach with deionised water and my permanganate is reagent grade. My bisulfate on the other hand even looks a bit yellow.

I understand.
Will you try some purer sulfuric acid?

 

[Anon Ymous]

I understand.
Will you try some purer sulfuric acid?

Yes, but it may not be very easy to source. Meanwhile, I have some dilute sulfuric acid (battery electrolyte) that has some bits floating. It may not be pure, but it's worth a try. I can avoid the floating bits with a pipette anyway.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Any idea what is the main rehalogenating impurity in hydrogen sulfate? If it is chloride that is causing rehalogenation, then you can try a 2 minutes rinse in 2% ammonia solution after bleaching to remove the chloride. A thorough wash before and after ammonia treatment is advisable.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Any idea what is the main rehalogenating impurity in hydrogen sulfate? If it is chloride that is causing rehalogenation, then you can try a 2 minutes rinse in 2% ammonia solution after bleaching to remove the chloride. A thorough wash before and after ammonia treatment is advisable.

It's not advisable since ammonia is a silver halide solvent. You'll risk to lower DMax...

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

It's not advisable since ammonia is a silver halide solvent. You'll risk to lower DMax...

Not really. @Athiril has gotten great results using copper sulphate bleach that uses ammonia to remove chloride. I've used the same method on several different films to get good results. Though bromide and iodide are also soluble in ammonia, it takes much more than a few minutes in 2% ammonia to see any significant loss in density. Bromide and iodide have much lower solubility in ammonia than chloride.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Not really. @Athiril has gotten great results using copper sulphate bleach that uses ammonia to remove chloride. I've used the same method on several different films to get good results. Though bromide and iodide are also soluble in ammonia, it takes much more than a few minutes in 2% ammonia to see any significant loss in density. Bromide and iodide have much lower solubility in ammonia than chloride.

It is still not advisable due to the excessive softening of the emulsion because of the permanganate bleach...

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

It is still not advisable due to the excessive softening of the emulsion because of the permanganate bleach...

Isn't Foma 100-R sufficiently hardened to handle permanganate bleach? Foma actually recommends dichromate bleach for this film.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Isn't Foma 100-R sufficiently hardened to handle permanganate bleach? Foma actually recommends dichromate bleach for this film.

Yes it will withstand a 8min permanganate bleach but I highly doubt it will withstand also a 2min ammonia dip...

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Yes it will withstand a 8min permanganate bleach but I highly doubt it will withstand also a 2min ammonia dip...

Hmmm.. never had any emulsion softening due to the use of 2% ammonia.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Hmmm.. never had any emulsion softening due to the use of 2% ammonia.

after a permanganate bleach?

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

after a permanganate bleach?

I haven't had a need to. I use lab grade hydrogen sulfate in my bleach and never had the problem of rehalogenation due to impurities. OP can easily test your untested hypothesis by bleaching one of the test slides with permanganate followed by a 2 minute rinse in 2% ammonia.

 

[Anon Ymous]

I understand.
Will you try some purer sulfuric acid?

I just tried another bleach, this time with sulfuric acid. This time the redeveloped film piece remained completely clear. The funny thing is, this rehalogenating effect didn't take place in previous attempts with Rollei Retro 80S, the leader remained completely clear. Any guesses why?

 

[DeletedAcct1]

I just tried another bleach, this time with sulfuric acid. This time the redeveloped film piece remained completely clear. The funny thing is, this rehalogenating effect didn't take place in previous attempts with Rollei Retro 80S, the leader remained completely clear. Any guesses why?

Please explain in more details.

 

[Anon Ymous]

Please explain in more details.

There's not much to give details about. The sodium bisulfate bleach I used previously seemed to have a rehalogenating effect when used with Fomapan R100. The same bleach, when used with Rollei Retro 80S didn't seem to act this way. This film also has a clear base and it's easy to spot an increased Dmin. Every time I reversed Rollei Retro 80S, the film leader always came out crystal clear. That's what is weird in this case.