First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

[Dustin McAmera]

'Bigger is better' now, at HP's insta.

I'm slightly over the orange phoenix; they should make him cool blue for a bit.

 

[Agulliver]

As far as I know Harman had done 4 master roll coating runs of Phoenix as of March 2024 with one more planned with this iteration of emulsion. Perhaps the last (5th) was for 120 or part thereof?
That's a lot of rolls!

Interesting, I hadn't picked this info up before but it would make sense.

Harman always said that 120 was an aim, and that once they'd got a much more "normal" C41 film they'd look at higher speeds. I think they reckoned at least five years to achieve a "normal" consumer grade C41 colour negative film, with incremental improvements being made. So there is no way this is the final iteration. It will might be the same as the 35mm Phoenix or it might be an incremental step towards something more competitive with Kodak's offerings. I guess we'll know on Friday.

 

[pentaxuser]

. I guess we'll know on Friday.

I may have some earlier mention of what I presume is Friday 6th September so what will that day tell us? Is this the known day for the 5th and final coating run of the first iteratíon of Phoenix so we will know for certain that 120 Phoenix will be produced?
Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Disconnekt]

There's a review video of Harman Phoenix 200 in 120 up on youtube:

Oop, nevermind. Seems they released it earlier than they were suppose to

 

[Milpool]

I really hope this nonsense and other Pemberstone initiatives aren’t the undoing of Harman.

 

[cerber0s]

I really hope this nonsense and other Pemberstone initiatives aren’t the undoing of Harman.

What nonsense would that be?

 

[Milpool]

What nonsense would that be?

Harman color film(s). It’s not the only thing that worries me but it worries me.

 

[cerber0s]

Harman color film(s). It’s not the only thing that worries me but it worries me.

Gotcha. Although I don’t think another manufacturer of color film is a bad thing. This far I think Harman have handled it brilliantly.

 

[armadsen]

I'm always surprised at how many people complain about things like this. As someone who has conceived of, designed, prototyped, manufactured, and sold physical products before (not film), it takes a lot of work, time, and money. There are two options:

- Harman creates a color film, starting with something very flawed, and incrementally working their way up to a high quality result.
- Harman doesn't create color film at all.

The third option -- Harman creates a color film and on day one it's Portra, or even Color Plus quality -- is simply not realistic. The only way for them to do that would be to completely fund the development themselves, discarding every experimental step along the way.

Complaining about the very first iteration doesn't make sense to me. It accomplishes exactly nothing. It's not as if Harman doesn't know that it's not objectively good yet! They're not morons with no knowledge of existing film and photography. And it's not as if they're selling a scam by telling potential customers that it's anything other than what it is, so you're not somehow exposing the truth to other people. You're just whining for whining's sake. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Personally, I'm more than happy to buy Phoenix to help fund Harman's further development. I've bought 6 rolls, and haven't yet gotten around to shooting them. I plan to, but even if I never do, helping them achieve a better product that I can buy someday is very well worth it to me. (I buy and shoot a lot of Ilford B&W too.)

Related: I bought a Pentax 17 too. I've actually have ended up loving shooting it, but if it means the next Pentax film camera actually ends up existing, it would have been worth it to me anyway.

 

[BrianShaw]

It seems that perhaps you've never paid a lot of your own hard-earned money for equipment that the user experience ends up being not much more than beta testing for Microsoft or Oracle or Cisco... and then stuck with an inferior product that doesnb't perform well and, sometimes. doesn't even perform its intended function. That experience tends to hardent the heart regarding "incrementally developed" products.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

You're within your rights to decry Phoenix, of course. It's a discussion forum for discussing things. I'm not sure how much it's a Pemberstone initiative. It's a while since I looked at any of the promo stuff they did, but the Harman people didn't look like this was something they'd been made to do. Venture capitalists usually have ideas like making every third person redundant, don't they?

Other stuff happening at Mobberley is the Harman Lab operation; not sure when they began that, but it seems an obvious move to me; it's not much of a stretch for a film-factory to be able to develop film, and if there's to be a resurgence of film then there must be a demand for D&P (or D&Scan). Peak Imaging in Sheffield shut in 2022; probably the big competition for the north of England.
(I honestly don't know if the UK lab operation is comparable/bigger/smaller than the US one; I suppose they might have set that one up by buying an existing place; someone here will know)

..And there's the spend on extra machinery, discussed in another thread. That might have been a Pemberstone strategist's idea, I suppose.

 

[Don_ih]

stuck with an inferior product that doesnb't perform well and, sometimes. doesn't even perform its intended function. That experience tends to hardent the heart regarding "incrementally developed" products.

At least in this instance, Harman fully disclosed the film is far from perfect - right on the sales page.

Software companies also can't simulate all possible real-life-use cases and don't have much choice but to release software that has not been fully debugged. That said, though, there have been lots of things released to the public that were a mess and should have had more work done on them.

Even cars are subject to recalls due to too many real-life-use failures. I have a car that was recalled because too heavy a keychain can cause it to shut off while driving. I wonder how heavy the keychain needs to be?

 

[armadsen]

It seems that perhaps you've never paid a lot of your own hard-earned money for equipment that the user experience ends up being not much more than beta testing for Microsoft or Oracle or Cisco... and then stuck with an inferior product that doesnb't perform well and, sometimes. doesn't even perform its intended function. That experience tends to hardent the heart regarding "incrementally developed" products.

There is an immense difference between buying an expensive product advertised as excellent from a multi-trillion dollar company (Microsoft) and buying an inexpensive, brand-new product advertised as far from perfect from a very small company. In the first case, you'd be absolutely right to complain, and heaven knows I've complained about things I've spent money on. In the second case, where did Harman do you wrong? They advertised a film as a first step, were very clear about its limitations, sold it at a fair price, and it performs just about exactly how they said it would.

 

[BrianShaw]

That's exactly right... they were up front; good on them. Those who either wanted to experiment with the film or support the effort did just that. Those who did not want to do those things either complained or quietly didn't buy. We all have our personal options and none should be shamed. Everyone is free to express their opinions (even opinions of opinions.)

 

[BrianShaw]

Even cars are subject to recalls due to too many real-life-use failures. I have a car that was recalled because too heavy a keychain can cause it to shut off while driving. I wonder how heavy the keychain needs to be?

Chevy? That was a problem with the 2003 Chevy Malibu. The answer to how many keys is okay was "the ignition key only"... and even that didn't prevent the ignition switch from breaking again.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

Stepping off topic, it's interesting how much chat there is about Phoenix, and how much less about Color Mission, which is much the same sort of effort (even with a helpful self-explanatory name). Whereas with Phoenix all sorts of things went wrong (because I chose to use it in charming old cameras) but I still had a great time and got some photos that seem worthwhile to me, I had a small handful of the first-gen Color Mission, but managed not to use it very well, and don't even have a firm idea whether I like the film or not. The last announcements, around January (?) suggested that second-gen CM ('Helios') was made in test-quantities, and was ISO 3 (three!). I would still buy some.

 

[Milpool]

It’s only my opinion, and in my opinion this, among other things, was not a great idea. As for the motivation, I’m not an insider so I can only speculate, albeit with a reasonable basis. Nobody has to agree, of course, and hopefully I’ll be wrong.

You're within your rights to decry Phoenix, of course. It's a discussion forum for discussing things. I'm not sure how much it's a Pemberstone initiative. It's a while since I looked at any of the promo stuff they did, but the Harman people didn't look like this was something they'd been made to do. Venture capitalists usually have ideas like making every third person redundant, don't they?

Other stuff happening at Mobberley is the Harman Lab operation; not sure when they began that, but it seems an obvious move to me; it's not much of a stretch for a film-factory to be able to develop film, and if there's to be a resurgence of film then there must be a demand for D&P (or D&Scan). Peak Imaging in Sheffield shut in 2022; probably the big competition for the north of England.
(I honestly don't know if the UK lab operation is comparable/bigger/smaller than the US one; I suppose they might have set that one up by buying an existing place; someone here will know)

..And there's the spend on extra machinery, discussed in another thread. That might have been a Pemberstone strategist's idea, I suppose.

 

[koraks]

Harman color film(s). It’s not the only thing that worries me but it worries me.

Their color film is a big adventure, but it seems that the investment is manageable and even if it doesn't pan out, they'll be able to afford the loss. However, if it does turn out to be successful, the potential gain is enormous. So no, it doesn't worry me. And I also doubt very much that your assessment is correct that this is a "pemberstone initiative". Pemberstone clearly support it, but surely the initiative originated within Harman proper.

 

[mollyc]

I have two rolls of Phoenix I bought a couple of months ago that I haven't used yet. But reading through this thread makes me want to throw some in one of my cameras.

 

[pentaxuser]

Harman color film(s). It’s not the only thing that worries me but it worries me.

What other things that Harman now does or has said it will do worries you in terms of it's future

On the basis that the word "worries" suggests it's a worry about Harman's future I haven't spotted anything but when another does spot something that might be a worry then I wonder what I may have missed

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Milpool]

Perhaps I should have been clearer in the meaning of Pemberstone initiative. In any case this is not worth an argument.

Their color film is a big adventure, but it seems that the investment is manageable and even if it doesn't pan out, they'll be able to afford the loss. However, if it does turn out to be successful, the potential gain is enormous. So no, it doesn't worry me. And I also doubt very much that your assessment is correct that this is a "pemberstone initiative". Pemberstone clearly support it, but surely the initiative originated within Harman proper.

 

[MattKing]

The colour film market is vastly larger than the black and white film market.
And Harman already has the benefit of a worldwide distribution infrastructure in place, unlike many of the bit players.
If Harman is able to succeed with something that approaches the quality of something like the old Ferrania/3M film product, then they could be much more profitable.

 

[Don_ih]

Harman seems to be selling all the Phoenix it makes. It definitely wouldn't be coating 120 if it can't sell the 35mm. Kodak even marked down 120 presumably because sales are not great. The film renaissance is mostly 35mm.

 

[Don_ih]

Chevy?

Ford.

 

[armadsen]

Stepping off topic, it's interesting how much chat there is about Phoenix, and how much less about Color Mission, which is much the same sort of effort (even with a helpful self-explanatory name). Whereas with Phoenix all sorts of things went wrong (because I chose to use it in charming old cameras) but I still had a great time and got some photos that seem worthwhile to me, I had a small handful of the first-gen Color Mission, but managed not to use it very well, and don't even have a firm idea whether I like the film or not. The last announcements, around January (?) suggested that second-gen CM ('Helios') was made in test-quantities, and was ISO 3 (three!). I would still buy some.

I think it's interesting too. For my own part, my local camera store got tons of Phoenix on launch day and has consistently had it in stock since. They advertised it on social media, and may have even sponsored a photo walk for it (can't remember). Whereas, I'm not sure I've ever actually seen Adox Color Mission in stock there. If I have, it certainly hasn't been prominently displayed. They do sell other Adox (B&W) films, and Rodinal, etc.