First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

[BrianShaw]

@brbo ... clearly you are a "cup half full" person. That must feel better than me, who sometimes has a tendency to cup half empty. Not even therapy is likely to change my skepticism; only proven performance does.

 

[pentaxuser]

I wonder how many of them would be willing to bet their money on the Phoenix project weighing down Harman's financial results? I wouldn't. But if I had to, I would actually bet on Phoenix helping Harman's bottom line.

You may be right but as Brian has said you and many others here are in a "glass half empty" optimistic category but others, much fewer in number, are in the more pessimistic "glass only half full" category and are more fearful and concerned that this venture into colour may drain Harman of resources that it needs to remain viable in b&w

pentaxuser

 

[BrianShaw]

You may be right but as Brian has said you and many others here are in a "glass half empty" optimistic category but others, much fewer in number, are in the more pessimistic "glass only half full" category and are more fearful and concerned that this venture into colour may drain Harman of resources that it needs to remain viable in b&w

pentaxuser

Perhaps there is a cultural difference in usage of that expression, or I have it wrong. Adding "only" in that expression is not how I've ever sayd it. Glass half full is optommistic; glass half empty is pessemistic. Glass fully full can spell correctly. LOL

Is the glass half empty or half full? - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[brbo]

You may be right but as Brian has said you and many others here are in a "glass half empty" optimistic category but others, much fewer in number, are in the more pessimistic "glass only half full" category and are more fearful and concerned that this venture into colour may drain Harman of resources that it needs to remain viable in b&w

Yes, staying relevant in BW is a hell of a job. There are new, improved, ISO12800 with Pan F grain films being introduced on a daily base now

And, again, there are "manufacturers" like Lomography that have been on the path to a proper C-41 film for while now. Making money in the progress! So, losing money in this endeavour is not an imperative. Not to mention that Harman already owns much of the equipment and infrastructure needed. It's more about what took them so long that I would worry about...

 

[Agulliver]

You may be right but as Brian has said you and many others here are in a "glass half empty" optimistic category but others, much fewer in number, are in the more pessimistic "glass only half full" category and are more fearful and concerned that this venture into colour may drain Harman of resources that it needs to remain viable in b&w

pentaxuser

I strongly get the impression that the people who fear Harman's resources may suffer due to the process of creating a colour film are in the minority. All available evidence shows there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

Another thing I simply don't get is people's lack of patience. A whole month between Harman appearing on social media teasing that they had something, and the launch of Phoenix. A whole month! That's really no time at all. And yes, it will take several years for them to create something on a par with Kodak. It's simply a fact, so I don't worry about the timescale nor find it annoying. Harman's social media campaign was very good, but as always it was not aimed at us. We are the outliers, the old fuddy-duddies who don't like social media campaigns and, apparently, don't like a harmless tease. Funny, I always thought we weren't into instant gratification here

And the glass is always full. The other half is full of air molecules.

 

[MattKing]

Another thing I simply don't get is people's lack of patience.

Have you ever worked in retail?

 

[foc]

I have looked into my tea leaves....... I also observed the casting of chicken bones under the light of a full moon........ I even counted the chickens as they came home to roost........

And I am of the opinion that in around 5 years time, we will look back and wonder what all the fuss was about.

We will enjoy the superb quality and selection of Harman colour films.

 

[koraks]

That - or Phoenix in all formats from 8mm to 8".

 

[pentaxuser]

OK my point about the difference between the belief expressed in this thread that some may wish Harman not to acquire the skill and knowledge to make colour film is not same as to what I believe is their real fear, however baseless that fear may be, seems to have fallen on stony ground

I felt that I had made this clear but so be it

pentaxuser

 

[Dustin McAmera]

For me, mid-summer would have been be the best time to get a slowish colour film to try out; those days when you can still be out photographing until about nine. But they brought out the 35mm one in November December even, and that went ok. I foresee Flickr being awash with autumn leaf + blue-sky pictures.


(apologies for being a parochial northern-hemisphere-dweller)

 

[MattKing]

Some of the fear expressed here may arise from remembering how being over-extended followed by a reversal of customer interest ended up decimating the film manufacturing landscape just a couple of decades ago. Caution isn't necessarily bad, although being overly cautious isn't good either.

 

[BrianShaw]

Perhaps I've lost the bubble, but where is this "fear"?

 

[MattKing]

Perhaps I've lost the bubble, but where is this "fear"?

Here, for example:

I really hope this nonsense and other Pemberstone initiatives aren’t the undoing of Harman.

 

[BrianShaw]

Thanks, Matt. I saw that comment and never thought it anywhere near the “fear” level. My criteria for fear must be higher than others.

 

[Agulliver]

The fear (unfounded as far as most can tell) is that this project is unwise and will lead to Harman's downfall. Several posters, though I feel a minority, have expressed concern that the Phoenix project will damage or even kill off Harman and thereby with it Ilford and Kentmere. The worry is that they are over extending their technical workforce and putting too much money into the project - at least that's what I am gleaning from posts. Whereas, if you look at all available evidence, this project seems well within Harman's means....and that was before we knew about the £10 million investment etc.

As it happens I haven't worked in retail. Though I generally was a very impatient child, somehow I learned to be more patient than most of my fellow humans. Perhaps impatience is a part of the human condition that I simply do not understand? Though I made the comment tongue firmly in cheek, it does surprise me that people into analogue photography are showing lack of patience. But I do also agree that it's a generational thing. We are generally used to different styles of marketing. And that's simply not how things are done any more.

I tried to find the interview where one of the people at Harman said they reckoned five years was realistic for a "normal" C41 film but I haven't located it. I think it might have been a video somewhere in one of the Phoenix threads on this forum....equally I could be remembering incorrectly. I do recall that they said that the aim was to ultimately to produce more film sizes and higher speed film.

Phoenix in 8mm. I mean.....I'd try it, but I imagine it would look a mess. I'm just hoping Foma keep producing Foma Cine Ortho 400 because it's beautiful and easy for me to process.

 

[Disconnekt]

Looks like a photo store in Spain has Harman Phoenix 200 in 120 for sale already for €12.00: https://fotoruanopro.com/carretes-d...-pelicula-120-mm-harman-phoenix-200-c-41.html

 

[JParker]

All available evidence shows there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

Yes. Concentrating on the facts we know:
- the published financial data of Harman shows stability and improvements over the last years
- they were successful in avoiding any product discontinuations during the last 20 years
- instead they have even introduced several new, exciting products, like the new Multigrade papers, the darkroom tent, SUCs, Pinhole cameras or the Kentmere films
- that they now introduce Phoenix in 120 is in my opinion a sign that Phoenix is so far at least selling in such a volume that they think an additional format is worth the effort and economically viable.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

, SUCs,

(Off-topic rant)
Single-use cameras are the devil's work. When we are trying to stop disposable plastic for uses like forks and straws and carrier bags, why would we allow something eminently reusable to be marketed as a disposable? A disposable plastic lump with a flash and a part-used battery in it, even.

 

[JParker]

(Off-topic rant)
Single-use cameras are the devil's work. When we are trying to stop disposable plastic for uses like forks and straws and carrier bags, why would we allow something eminently reusable to be marketed as a disposable? A disposable plastic lump with a flash and a part-used battery in it, even.

I can understand you. I am not a big friend of them either, don't use them personally.
But fact is, there is a big demand for them (even more so for color film), and Harman has reacted to that demand.
AFAIK the labs don't throw the SUCs away, the materials go for recycling. At least that was told to me by several labs.

 

[Disconnekt]

Here's a review of Phoenix 200 in 120 (now fhat its been officially announced):

 

[JParker]

Yeah, looks like the time restriction for the NDAs have ended just a moment ago.
There are already more reviews coming:

 

[albireo]

Adox was quite clear about Color Mission. It wasn't coated in-house, they have limited and final quantities of it and they decided to sell it slowly, which basically means you can buy 3 rolls at Fotoimpex every other full moon...

I tried a few rolls after seeing your results with it.

What a gorgeous film. Beautifully saturated and beautifully grainy. I must remember to buy more.

 

[loccdor]

To my eye, more pleasing colors than Kodak Gold or Ultramax. Its low dynamic range works better for some subjects. The main gripe, it's graininess, will be reduced as a problem with medium format. I wonder if it would have been a smarter move to release the 120 version first. Then again, that decision must have had something to do with market shares.

 

[Disconnekt]

I wonder if it would have been a smarter move to release the 120 version first. Then again, that decision must have had something to do with market shares.

I think they went 35mm first due to it being the more "popular" format, and mostly to see how it was recieved by people before going up to 120

 

[pbromaghin]

The colour film market is vastly larger than the black and white film market.
And Harman already has the benefit of a worldwide distribution infrastructure in place, unlike many of the bit players.
If Harman is able to succeed with something that approaches the quality of something like the old Ferrania/3M film product, then they could be much more profitable.

Yes.

A small slice of the color film market is probably larger than all of Harman's B&W sales combined. They have everything they need except the product. They are minimizing the cost and risk of developing the product by using all of the "everything else" to get revenue from their prototypes. Low risk coupled with potentially very high reward. Simply genius.