First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

[Disconnekt]

Looks like the price for Harman Phoenix in 120 is gonna be $10.99£/~$14.40usd

 

[tykos]

Stepping off topic, it's interesting how much chat there is about Phoenix, and how much less about Color Mission, which is much the same sort of effort (even with a helpful self-explanatory name). Whereas with Phoenix all sorts of things went wrong (because I chose to use it in charming old cameras) but I still had a great time and got some photos that seem worthwhile to me, I had a small handful of the first-gen Color Mission, but managed not to use it very well, and don't even have a firm idea whether I like the film or not. The last announcements, around January (?) suggested that second-gen CM ('Helios') was made in test-quantities, and was ISO 3 (three!). I would still buy some.

just a thought: maybe because harman is quite a big company, is producing lots of (bw) films, has a big distributors network and has been around for quite some time, so this all figures like a really solid company that can lead somewhere, while adox is small, quite recent (yes i know history, but this propriety is recent in the grand scheme of things), riddled with production obstacles (factories working not at their full capacity, as per adox' statements), produces only a bunch of films, and (to me?) it hasn't been clear if the coating for the colour film was in house or outsourced.
All these things can lead to perceiving Adox as an underdog that is tinkering around while Harman is a big player with massive capacity.

[beware: no judgment about the real company profile, just thinking about what could be the vision for a non-nerd user]

 

[brbo]

just a thought: maybe because harman is quite a big company, is producing lots of (bw) films, has a big distributors network and has been around for quite some time, so this all figures like a really solid company that can lead somewhere, while adox is small, quite recent (yes i know history, but this propriety is recent in the grand scheme of things), riddled with production obstacles (factories working not at their full capacity, as per adox' statements), produces only a bunch of films, and (to me?) it hasn't been clear if the coating for the colour film was in house or outsourced.

Adox was quite clear about Color Mission. It wasn't coated in-house, they have limited and final quantities of it and they decided to sell it slowly, which basically means you can buy 3 rolls at Fotoimpex every other full moon...

 

[tykos]

Adox was quite clear about Color Mission. It wasn't coated in-house, they have limited and final quantities of it and they decided to sell it slowly, which basically means you can buy 3 rolls at Fotoimpex every other full moon...

i remembered something about it.
So yeah, Adox is doing small scale experiments with a non readily available coating plant while Harman is just waiting for the technicians to indicate the right formula.

(same disclaimer as before, i'm not bashing adox, just trying to identify the causes of different hype in these two films, exaggerating what we know)

 

[Angarian]

Adox was quite clear about Color Mission. It wasn't coated in-house, they have limited and final quantities of it and they decided to sell it slowly, which basically means you can buy 3 rolls at Fotoimpex every other full moon...

Correct.
And Adox also told us customers very honestly (and I very highly appreciate that honesty!) that they got access to that film because of a recent insolvency of a color film manufacturer.
The only color film manufacturer with a recent insolvency is InovisCoat. So Color Mission was developed and coated by InovisCoat.
Confectioning / finishing is done by Adox.

 

[Agulliver]

I think the only reason we're not talking much about Adox Colour Mission is because Harman Phoenix is on general sale, in stock, in all the usual places. I can buy from my local camera shop, from any of the usual online film suppliers, from Harman themselves and even on Amazon.

If I wish to purchase Colour Mission, I have to wait for Fotoimpex to release a few into the market and pay a lot to have it mailed to me.

Not knocking Adox at all, they do amazing things for our community. It is simply a fact that production of Colour Mission is on a much smaller scale than Phoenix. I hope Adox are successful too.

I really don't understand the criticism of Harman, or the worry....or the invocation of the Pemberstone name as if it's something to be feared. Pemberstone have been in charge for years now and we've seen nothing bad happen, and only good changes. All the existing film and paper products remain in production and consistently available even during the height of the pandemic. Their commitment to the Ilford name and line of products has been demonstrated time and time again. If Pemberstone were your average venture capitalists, they'd have axed most of the products leaving perhaps HP5+ and Delta 100 & 400, axed the Kentmere products, axed the ULF completely, got rid of a third of the staff and so on.

Their finances, which are published for all to see, show a very financially stable company and the recent partnership with lloyd's Bank to inject record investment into the company only further demonstrates that a venerable and trusted financial institution believes Harman are stable and safe.

And yes, it basically is a choice between releasing an imperfect product, clearly advertised as such, and seeing incremental improvements until it's comparable to those offered by Kodak.....or no Harman colour film at all. Those are your options. The other option you have is whether to buy Phoenix or not. And it is perfectly fine to sit back and say, "This isn't something I want to buy right now, I'll wait and see if it gets better" is totally OK. But criticising Harman for trying, criticising the product for being something it's not claimed to be, whining as one poster put it, for the sake of whining.....seems futile.

Nobody can claim they were burned by buying Phoenix. it was fully advertised as experimental, with unusual colours, tricky exposure latitude, even coating defects. Harman literally told us 'hey, this is experimental but we're offering it for you to try if you want to buy it.' And sure, some results have been really funky. Some scanners really don't like it. Also some of us have worked out how to use it and get great results that are either simply good colour photos or which use the unusual characteristics of Phoenix to produce artistic effects.

It's a far cry from buying Windows Vista back in the day and finding that it was a total pile of steaming poo. Vista didn't do what it said it did. Vista didn't do what it was supposed to do. Vista was a new release of a long existing and much developed product. That would be more like Ilford replacing HP5+ and HP6 being released with a big ad campaign and a price hike.....and turning out that it's more grainy than HP5+, you can't push it beyond 800, it's too contrasty ruins your developer preventing it from being used again.

You cannot complain that you bought an experimental product which was advertised as.....an experimental product. You do, of course, have the right not to buy it. And not to like the results if you do buy it. Harman welcome feedback, good and bad, on what people have achieved with Phoenix....when it worked, when it didn't, when it did something unexpected, and so on. It would be a different kettle of the proverbial fish if they'd advertised it as "New! Fantastic colour film that is the equal of Kodak! Be the envy of your photography friends and be the first to try the latest colour film! It's a Portra-beater!"

 

[brbo]

If anything, I'd want more of that Phoenix spirit, not less.

In the last decade of the "film renaissance" Kodak managed to re-introduce E100 and TMZ (in 135 format only). I guess they were too busy working on... new film prices. Not even going to waste words on what all Fuji did (not do).

 

[BrianShaw]

“I really don't understand the criticism of Harman”

It’s simply a reflection of the feelings and needs and desires of a segment of the potential market. It seems perfectly reasonable that Harman listens to this too. It’s not uncommon for focus groups, for instance, to express a full range of opinions. That gives marketing folks more to work with than they get from just the rousing cheers of fanboys. Consider Photrio discussion to be an online equivalent of a focus group. It’s all good…

 

[brbo]

Consider Photrio discussion to be an online equivalent of a focus group. It’s all good…

Should that focus group to be of any value, you'd probably want to know the reasons why some participants don't want Harman to acquire knowledge and skill to produce colour film.

We haven't heard any sensible reason for that here yet.

 

[Film-Niko]

Correct.
And Adox also told us customers very honestly (and I very highly appreciate that honesty!) that they got access to that film because of a recent insolvency of a color film manufacturer.
The only color film manufacturer with a recent insolvency is InovisCoat. So Color Mission was developed and coated by InovisCoat.
Confectioning / finishing is done by Adox.

And that is also one of the reasons why there is less talk about Color Mission compared to Harman Phoenix.
Harman Phoenix is to 100% a Harman product. And permanently available.
Color Mission is mainly an InovisCoat product, and not permanently available (I don't criticise that at all; it has very good reasons, and I would do it exactly the same way if I were responsible for that product).
I think we will see more talk about ADOX Color Mission film when they will be successful with their new film which is currently in R&D in their own company, and which will be a unique film no other manufacturer can offer.

 

[Film-Niko]

I think the only reason we're not talking much about Adox Colour Mission is because Harman Phoenix is on general sale, in stock, in all the usual places. I can buy from my local camera shop, from any of the usual online film suppliers, from Harman themselves and even on Amazon.

If I wish to purchase Colour Mission, I have to wait for Fotoimpex to release a few into the market and pay a lot to have it mailed to me.

Not knocking Adox at all, they do amazing things for our community. It is simply a fact that production of Colour Mission is on a much smaller scale than Phoenix. I hope Adox are successful too.

I really don't understand the criticism of Harman, or the worry....or the invocation of the Pemberstone name as if it's something to be feared. Pemberstone have been in charge for years now and we've seen nothing bad happen, and only good changes. All the existing film and paper products remain in production and consistently available even during the height of the pandemic. Their commitment to the Ilford name and line of products has been demonstrated time and time again. If Pemberstone were your average venture capitalists, they'd have axed most of the products leaving perhaps HP5+ and Delta 100 & 400, axed the Kentmere products, axed the ULF completely, got rid of a third of the staff and so on.

Their finances, which are published for all to see, show a very financially stable company and the recent partnership with lloyd's Bank to inject record investment into the company only further demonstrates that a venerable and trusted financial institution believes Harman are stable and safe.

And yes, it basically is a choice between releasing an imperfect product, clearly advertised as such, and seeing incremental improvements until it's comparable to those offered by Kodak.....or no Harman colour film at all. Those are your options. The other option you have is whether to buy Phoenix or not. And it is perfectly fine to sit back and say, "This isn't something I want to buy right now, I'll wait and see if it gets better" is totally OK. But criticising Harman for trying, criticising the product for being something it's not claimed to be, whining as one poster put it, for the sake of whining.....seems futile.

Nobody can claim they were burned by buying Phoenix. it was fully advertised as experimental, with unusual colours, tricky exposure latitude, even coating defects. Harman literally told us 'hey, this is experimental but we're offering it for you to try if you want to buy it.' And sure, some results have been really funky. Some scanners really don't like it. Also some of us have worked out how to use it and get great results that are either simply good colour photos or which use the unusual characteristics of Phoenix to produce artistic effects.

It's a far cry from buying Windows Vista back in the day and finding that it was a total pile of steaming poo. Vista didn't do what it said it did. Vista didn't do what it was supposed to do. Vista was a new release of a long existing and much developed product. That would be more like Ilford replacing HP5+ and HP6 being released with a big ad campaign and a price hike.....and turning out that it's more grainy than HP5+, you can't push it beyond 800, it's too contrasty ruins your developer preventing it from being used again.

You cannot complain that you bought an experimental product which was advertised as.....an experimental product. You do, of course, have the right not to buy it. And not to like the results if you do buy it. Harman welcome feedback, good and bad, on what people have achieved with Phoenix....when it worked, when it didn't, when it did something unexpected, and so on. It would be a different kettle of the proverbial fish if they'd advertised it as "New! Fantastic colour film that is the equal of Kodak! Be the envy of your photography friends and be the first to try the latest colour film! It's a Portra-beater!"

+100.
You have totally nailed it.

 

[BrianShaw]

Looks like the price for Harman Phoenix in 120 is gonna be $10.99£/~$14.40usd

Well that's nothing to complain about!

 

[Film-Niko]

If anything, I'd want more of that Phoenix spirit, not less.

Yepp, we need much more of that! The kind of monopoly Kodak currently has is very bad for the market and us customers.

In the last decade of the "film renaissance" Kodak managed to re-introduce E100 and TMZ (in 135 format only). I guess they were too busy working on... new film prices.

........and wasting time and money on making very ugly film boxes.......duck-and-hide .

 

[BrianShaw]

Should that focus group to be of any value, you'd probably want to know the reasons why some participants don't want Harman to acquire knowledge and skill to produce colour film.

We haven't heard any sensible reason for that here yet.

Sure, there has been a sensible solution offered: some folks desire a finished product rather than an experimental product. Tht opinion offered, as focus group opinions generally reflect, the value to the potential user rather than benevolence for corporate, or industry, success/future. It's not for all people and some opinions reflect that. Probably has little to do with any kind of "naysayer" desire for Harman to not prosper. It's quite likely that the vast majority of film users welcome new additions to the film market and have a strong desire for those companies that offer trusted products that are used regularly to continue.

As Niko mentioned above with Kodak wasting money on ugly film boxes, it is likely that some consider this color film venture a potential failure that will negatively impact Harman's future. Only time will tell...

 

[brbo]

Harman's chosen path to C-41 negative film is exactly that, ensuring that there is no negative (or very very limited) impact on Harman's future. The drawback being that they showed their hand and won't suddenly surprise the market with a finished product - state-of-the-art C-41 negative film.

But there could be a big positive impact on Harman's future.

Maybe people that view Phoenix as something bad, a threat to Harman, only shoot BW and want Harman to just stay the same forever? Something like a sibling jealousy?

 

[BrianShaw]

Harman's chosen path to C-41 negative film is exactly that, ensuring that there is no negative (or very very limited) impact on Harman's future. The drawback being that they showed their hand and won't suddenly surprise the market with a finished product - state-of-the-art C-41 negative film.

But there could be a big positive impact on Harman's future.

Maybe people that view Phoenix as something bad, a threat to Harman, only shoot BW and want Harman to just stay the same forever? Something like a sibling jealousy?

No disagreement. For some the drawback is that Harman did not show enough of their hand. The new-age mystery marketing might be exciting for some and not others who want the facts. The examples were good yet some were looking for traditional data sheets. And the uncertainty of what characteristics exist in each release is also problematic for some. In addition to potential sibling rivalry, it’s likely also a generation gap issue.

 

[Agulliver]

I'm neither here nor there on the look of the new Kodak boxes. But didn't they have a redesign not so long ago? It's no trivial cost to redesign the packaging so it does seem a bit of a strange decision.

Kodak themselves welcome another manufacturer of colour film. And for us, if Harman do produce a more conventional C41 film down the line, it's more choice.

Sure, if Harman had sat on this for a further few years and announced a fully formed, conventional C41 film it would have been a wonderful surprise....but how much would have they poured into it for no return up to that point? They simply wouldn't have got there. By selling Phoenix not only do they create a buzz, they recoup some or all of the R&D costs along the way thus creating minimal risk to the ongoing Ilford and Kentmere businesses.

NB I am still awaiting the names of posters who claimed that Phoenix was a final, finished product without unusual and generally undesirable characteristics.

 

[BrianShaw]

@Agulliver … you could be waiting until the cows come home to roost. I think we’ve been paying attention and nobody has made such a claim.

 

[Film-Niko]

As Niko mentioned above with Kodak wasting money on ugly film boxes, it is likely that some consider this color film venture a potential failure that will negatively impact Harman's future. Only time will tell...

As color film is by far the biggest market, Harman's move offers additional chances and potential for them.
That they are probably extending the range now by offering Phoenix in 120 is another clear sign for that.
Entering the color film market is probably their biggest chance to secure their existance in the long run. A sustainable approach, from which their BW business will certainly benefit as well.

And I wouldn't be surprised at all when in the long term the results in their color R&D will also have positive effects on their BW products.

 

[Agulliver]

No disagreement. For some the drawback is that Harman did not show enough of their hand. The new-age mystery marketing might be exciting for some and not others who want the facts. The examples were good yet some were looking for traditional data sheets. And the uncertainty of what characteristics exist in each release is also problematic for some. In addition to potential sibling rivalry, it’s likely also a generation gap issue.

Yep it's at least partly a generation gap thing. I am friends with some much younger film users and I occasionally pop into a Discord server run by Analogue Wonderland. They completely get what Harman are doing, none of them has any interest in data sheets, they shoot film and observe the results. They are much more likely to try non-traditional films. And for sure, some get tried just the once while others become favourites. Still the mainstays are HP5 and Kodak Gold or Portra.

We do need to constantly remind ourselves that the film resurgence is mostly driven by people under 30, often significantly under 30....the social media campaign really resonated with that demographic and they're still buying Phoenix.

I am undecided about Phoenix in 120. I do not currently need any 120 colour film, I have several rolls about to expire or recently expired that I should shoot soon. All but two of my medium format cameras are very vintage folders or box cameras - probably not going to get the best out of Phoenix in them.

 

[BrianShaw]

We’re all trying to read tea leaves that we really can’t see.

When (or if) Harman succeeds, Phoenix will be a great asset to photography. And even then there may be diversity of opinion. It’s just the way things seem to go.

 

[Agulliver]

@Agulliver … you could be waiting until the cows come home to roost. I think we’ve been paying attention and nobody has made such a claim.

I agree, certainly here. Perhaps the poster who claimed that view was prevalent confused Photrio with another forum?

 

[Agulliver]

We’re all trying to read tea leaves that we really can’t see.

And Harman like teasing us.

WHat I think we legit would like to know for sure is whether the next batch of Phoenix is improved in any significant way or if it's the same as was launched a few months ago. Will the 120 film perform essentially the same as the film some of us are familiar with? I do think that's something we are justified in hoping Harman makes clear.

 

[pentaxuser]

Should that focus group to be of any value, you'd probably want to know the reasons why some participants don't want Harman to acquire knowledge and skill to produce colour film.

We haven't heard any sensible reason for that here yet.

Al I can say ís that I have not noticed anyone saying that they do not want to see Harman acquiring the knowledge and skill to produce colour film

I have seen concern being expressed at the cost of so doing and its possible effect on its viability to continue making what it knows and does well, namely b&w film

The two sentiments are not the same as I see it

pentaxuser

 

[brbo]

No disagreement. For some the drawback is that Harman did not show enough of their hand. The new-age mystery marketing might be exciting for some and not others who want the facts.

I didn't like their Phoenix marketing campaign, either. It was like a month long tease after which we learned that they would like to tease us for the next X-number of years with a "work in progress" product.

I'm neither here nor there on the look of the new Kodak boxes. But didn't they have a redesign not so long ago?

No. For example, Ektar 100 box was left unchanged from its introduction. They started introducing new boxes last year (I think Ultramax 400 was the first to get new box design).

I have seen concern being expressed at the cost of so doing and its possible effect on its viability to continue making what it knows and does well, namely b&w film

I wonder how many of them would be willing to bet their money on the Phoenix project weighing down Harman's financial results? I wouldn't. But if I had to, I would actually bet on Phoenix helping Harman's bottom line.