First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

[Flighter]

Thanks On that basis I'll go made money-wise on Xmas day and open a tin of corned beef

pentaxuser

Don't go crazy, save some for Boxing Day!

 

[Brad Deputy]

Ambitious!

View attachment 355291

Someone seems to have confused the ISO rating with the price

The sad and aggravating aspect of this is that someone will end up buying it, after the stock is sold out. More eBay auctions to come.

 

[LeoniD]

I am also an expired film lover but I think we can both agree that, even freezer stored, film that expired nearly 40 years ago isn't going to perform the same as when it was fresh.

Well, it's a freezer, and the grain is comparable to Colorplus, so the difference can't be that big

 

[Ten301]

Sure, dreadful is a bit further than I would go, but it's kind of like pointing out that Mountain Dew isn't Champagne.

We’re not even talking Mountain Dew here. I’m thinking a more apt comparison would be donkey pi$$ isn’t Dom Perignon 🫏
(Written with a sense of humor 0x00)

 

[warden]

My issue is the new trend in this business to peddle to the public for cash your R&D frogs...

At least you recognize that this is your issue, and not everyone's. I have no problem with it whatsoever.

Did you see Kodak with their hands out when resurrecting Ektachome? Fuji ... the trend of the public funding corporate R&D grows every year.

I think Kodak and Fuji missed an opportunity to connect with new customers there tbh. There is a segment of the analog community that is excited to be involved in early releases of film even if it renders scenes in unusual color, contrast, etc. It's not the old school approach to marketing, but then again it's not the heyday of film anymore and any positive and fun engagement manufacturers can generate before the final version of the film is offered can be a real bonus. Harman have been entirely forthright about what they are doing, and are engaging with their customers using their not-ready-for-primetime film. I think they'll earn new and loyal customers here.

There is a QR code inside every box that leads to a simple survey to gather feedback on the experience of shooting this film, gage interest in future products, etc. Their direct to consumer marketing will work.

This is all quite harmless I might add, unlike the utterly ridiculous comparisons to automobiles which can be deadly.

 

[warden]

Following the QR code on the box takes you to a survey. The most interesting question on the survey:

"If you could easily access C41 chemicals would you consider processing your own color film?"

Hmmm

 

[Steven Lee]

Grainydays on Youtube posted a hilarious interview with the Harman chemists who've created the film.

 

[0x001688936CA08]

... a more apt comparison would be donkey pi$$ isn’t Dom Perignon 🫏

I think Dubblefilm is the Donkey Piss of film, and Phoenix might be more like water from the Thames.

 

[BrianShaw]

Kodak reached out to me (and many others) when Portra was being released. They generously provided 8 rolls of film: 2 each, 160NC and VC and 400 NC and VC. The difference was that their marketing was clear about the product with no mystery. That was then, and now is now. Crowdfunding new developments, which I roughly categorize Harman’s approach, is modern and seems here to stay. It is what it is. My reaction is still to judge the product according to my needs/desires exclusively. While at the same time wishing them future success and being happy for all whos needs are being fulfilled, or may be fulfilled in the future.

 

[Ten301]

“This is all quite harmless I might add, unlike the utterly ridiculous comparisons to automobiles which can be deadly.”

As I mentioned in my post, the automobile comparison was a bit dramatic. It was an extrapolation of my point. No one will be harmed by being behind behind the wheel of a camera shooting Phoenix

 

[0x001688936CA08]

... The difference was that their marketing was clear about the product with no mystery.

... Crowdfunding new developments, which I roughly categorize Harman’s approach...

What's unclear or mysterious about Phoenix?

It's Harman capital bound up in the containers of film they've shipped to retailers, doesn't really sound much like crowdfunding to me.

 

[Henning Serger]

I’m not “shitting” on the company, and actually wish them well.

My issue is the new trend in this business to peddle to the public for cash your R&D frogs, warts and all, on your way to the prince. Did you see Kodak with their hands out when resurrecting Ektachome? Fuji when they had to reformulate Velvia 50? I’m sure there was a lot of trial and error for both.

Well, I think you are missing very important points here:
1. Fujifilm and Velvia 50 reformulation: They started that R&D process in 2005, and at that time the global market for standard photographic film (non-instant film) was still almost 2 billion units p.a.. And when they introduced it in 2007 the market was still more than 1 billion units p.a.
In 2023 the global market for standard films (non-instant) is less than 100 million units. So Harman is operating with their project in a completely different market, with a fraction of the former volume. And a fraction of former income.
Furthermore Fujifilm has been for decades a huge multi-billion Dollar company. Harman with its about 200 heads staff is absolutely tiny compard to Fujifilm.
And Fujifilm had to "only" reformulate Velvia 50. But Harman has to design a completely new product from scratch.

2. Kodak also had a fundament and very good base with Ektachrome E100G. New E100 is different in some parameters but not an entirely new or fundamentally different film. And wasn't perfect at the introduction either.
Also Kodak is a much much bigger film manufacturer than Harman, with bigger resources.

Please look at the Ilford partner forum here, there you can find the financial data of Harman technology.
It is a relatively small company. It is profitable, but far away from being a rich company with huge financial resources.
Colour film is an absolute high-tech product, and belongs to the most sophisticating and challenging products in the chemical industry. It is extremely difficult to produce, both in technological and economical terms.
Therefore Harman's approach to be very honest and open-minded about their R&D and the product, including all its quirks and limitations, and reduce the financial risks by selling the product to their customers who want to support that project, is absolutely the right way.
That policy increases the chances that this whole project can be a success in the long term.

I have so far visited five different film manufacturers/factories, and three of them are either in the colour film business, or preparing for it. From my detailed discussions and what I have seen there I know quite well what is needed for a successful colour film production.
And most photrio-members are still underestimating both the technological and financial challenges of it in the current market environment.

Harman has chosen a more conservative, less-risky, step-by-step long-term approach / strategy.
And that is the best they can do!
No one is forced to buy this new Phoenix film. I am a big fan of the technologically best and most advanced films, and I prefer this high-tech, premium quality material for about 98% of my photography, like Delta 100.
But nevertheless I will buy this new film, and I will certainly have fun with it, and I will find photographic subjects for it, like I have found for former ADOX Color Implosion for example.
So I will definitely do my part to support the "Brave Knights of Knutsford". I am using Ilford products for decades, and I have always been very satiesfied with them. Therefore it is a no-brainer for me to help them with this amazing, but very challenging long-term project.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[cerber0s]

Well, I think you are missing very important points here:
1. Fujifilm and Velvia 50 reformulation: They started that R&D process in 2005, and at that time the global market for standard photographic film (non-instant film) was still almost 2 billion units p.a.. And when they introduced it in 2007 the market was still more than 1 billion units p.a.
In 2023 the global market for standard films (non-instant) is less than 100 million units. So Harman is operating with their project in a completely different market, with a fraction of the former volume. And a fraction of former income.
Furthermore Fujifilm has been for decades a huge multi-billion Dollar company. Harman with its about 200 heads staff is absolutely tiny compard to Fujifilm.
And Fujifilm had to "only" reformulate Velvia 50. But Harman has to design a completely new product from scratch.

2. Kodak also had a fundament and very good base with Ektachrome E100G. New E100 is different in some parameters but not an entirely new or fundamentally different film. And wasn't perfect at the introduction either.
Also Kodak is a much much bigger film manufacturer than Harman, with bigger resources.

Please look at the Ilford partner forum here, there you can find the financial data of Harman technology.
It is a relatively small company. It is profitable, but far away from being a rich company with huge financial resources.
Colour film is an absolute high-tech product, and belongs to the most sophisticating and challenging products in the chemical industry. It is extremely difficult to produce, both in technological and economical terms.
Therefore Harman's approach to be very honest and open-minded about their R&D and the product, including all its quirks and limitations, and reduce the financial risks by selling the product to their customers who want to support that project, is absolutely the right way.
That policy increases the chances that this whole project can be a success in the long term.

I have so far visited five different film manufacturers/factories, and three of them are either in the colour film business, or preparing for it. From my detailed discussions and what I have seen there I know quite well what is needed for a successful colour film production.
And most photrio-members are still underestimating both the technological and financial challenges of it in the current market environment.

Harman has chosen a more conservative, less-risky, step-by-step long-term approach / strategy.
And that is the best they can do!
No one is forced to buy this new Phoenix film. I am a big fan of the technologically best and most advanced films, and I prefer this high-tech, premium quality material for about 98% of my photography, like Delta 100.
But nevertheless I will buy this new film, and I will certainly have fun with it, and I will find photographic subjects for it, like I have found for former ADOX Color Implosion for example.
So I will definitely do my part to support the "Brave Knights of Knutsford". I am using Ilford products for decades, and I have always been very satiesfied with them. Therefore it is a no-brainer for me to help them with this amazing, but very challenging long-term project.

Best regards,
Henning

Well put!

 

[warden]

“This is all quite harmless I might add, unlike the utterly ridiculous comparisons to automobiles which can be deadly.”

As I mentioned in my post, the automobile comparison was a bit dramatic. It was an extrapolation of my point. No one will be harmed by being behind behind the wheel of a camera shooting Phoenix

Yeah we’re good, it’s just a curiosity how people tend to compare product X with cars, which happens so often. “I just got this new pen and it leaked on my shirt - you wouldn’t catch Porsche doing that!”

 

[warden]

Well, I think you are missing very important points here:
1. Fujifilm and Velvia 50 reformulation: They started that R&D process in 2005, and at that time the global market for standard photographic film (non-instant film) was still almost 2 billion units p.a.. And when they introduced it in 2007 the market was still more than 1 billion units p.a.
In 2023 the global market for standard films (non-instant) is less than 100 million units. So Harman is operating with their project in a completely different market, with a fraction of the former volume. And a fraction of former income.
Furthermore Fujifilm has been for decades a huge multi-billion Dollar company. Harman with its about 200 heads staff is absolutely tiny compard to Fujifilm.
And Fujifilm had to "only" reformulate Velvia 50. But Harman has to design a completely new product from scratch.

2. Kodak also had a fundament and very good base with Ektachrome E100G. New E100 is different in some parameters but not an entirely new or fundamentally different film. And wasn't perfect at the introduction either.
Also Kodak is a much much bigger film manufacturer than Harman, with bigger resources.

Please look at the Ilford partner forum here, there you can find the financial data of Harman technology.
It is a relatively small company. It is profitable, but far away from being a rich company with huge financial resources.
Colour film is an absolute high-tech product, and belongs to the most sophisticating and challenging products in the chemical industry. It is extremely difficult to produce, both in technological and economical terms.
Therefore Harman's approach to be very honest and open-minded about their R&D and the product, including all its quirks and limitations, and reduce the financial risks by selling the product to their customers who want to support that project, is absolutely the right way.
That policy increases the chances that this whole project can be a success in the long term.

I have so far visited five different film manufacturers/factories, and three of them are either in the colour film business, or preparing for it. From my detailed discussions and what I have seen there I know quite well what is needed for a successful colour film production.
And most photrio-members are still underestimating both the technological and financial challenges of it in the current market environment.

Harman has chosen a more conservative, less-risky, step-by-step long-term approach / strategy.
And that is the best they can do!
No one is forced to buy this new Phoenix film. I am a big fan of the technologically best and most advanced films, and I prefer this high-tech, premium quality material for about 98% of my photography, like Delta 100.
But nevertheless I will buy this new film, and I will certainly have fun with it, and I will find photographic subjects for it, like I have found for former ADOX Color Implosion for example.
So I will definitely do my part to support the "Brave Knights of Knutsford". I am using Ilford products for decades, and I have always been very satiesfied with them. Therefore it is a no-brainer for me to help them with this amazing, but very challenging long-term project.

Best regards,
Henning

It is mind boggling to me how much this company accomplishes with about 200 people.

 

[BrianShaw]

It is mind boggling to me how much this company accomplishes with about 200 people.

It really is. There’s a lot of motive power when like minded people share a common vision, and have supportive management systems.

 

[logan2z]

YouTuber Kyle McDougall has posted some scans on IG that seem to look quite a bit more natural than some of the others I've seen posted in this thread and elsewhere. See below...

 

[Agulliver]

If Harman can produce a color film from scratch in this day and age, you better believe that Kodak can bring back Kodachrome!

Kodak could probably manufacture Kodachrome. But who would process it?

As imperfect as Phoenix is, I'm full of admiration that Harman have got this far in 12 months.

I don’t know what market Phoenix fits “perfectly” into, except perhaps the Lomo market, those who enjoy purple and turquoise film

But again, I wish Harman well. Perhaps had Phoenix been a little more polished before they released it, even just getting somewhat closer to Color Mission. Anyone has to admit from what has been released thus far, Phoenix results are pretty dreadful by any standards. No amount of marketing can change that.

Phoenix isn't a purple and turquoise film. Nor are the results all "dreadful by any standards". It is possible to take good photographs with it, as several of the examples now published demonstrate. It's also possible to take dreadful photographs with it. This is easier than with anything Kodak or Fuji have offered in recent years. But it appears that if one follows Harman's guidelines with regard to lighting and subject matter, and scanning, it's possible to make nice photos. It's also possible to experiment and have fun. It's not quite what a lot of us thought it was, but that doesn't make it "bad" or indeed "dreadful".

Gold is inferior to Kodacolor VR.

Ha! Someone else agrees with me! I've always felt the same. But Gold was tweaked to make dull days look bright, and that seems popular.

I don't understand the comparisons to dentist drills. But with cars, people enjoy driving classic, vintage and veteran cars. People in these very forums pine for the return of Kodachrome, Panatomic X, Verichrome Pan, Agfa Color, glass plates, flash bulbs......so what's wrong with Phoenix when it is specifically being advertised as an unusual, high contrast film with visible grain. Nobody is being strapped to a chair and forced to buy it at gunpoint.

 

[Agulliver]

It is mind boggling to me how much this company accomplishes with about 200 people.

Indeed, it really is an achievement.

@Henning Serger thank you for your wonderful post above.

 

[brbo]

I went from "meh" when seeing spec sheet to "nice!!!" when seeing select thumb sized examples and then back to "meh" when seeing more larger sized examples form Phoenix.

I'll form my own opinion after I scan and print Phoenix 200. But I also know now that I should reevaluate my (low) opinion of Orwo NC500 and Lomochrome Color '92. It seems that everything Phoenix has over them is just... marketing. In everything else they seem to be ahead of Phoenix.

So, good job Harman, Lomo/Orwo! I hope they can all keep making progress in the years to come...

 

[George Mann]

Kodak could probably manufacture Kodachrome. But who would process it?

Well, we have a little saying around these parts that says if you build it, they will come.

 

[logan2z]

Apologies for the cross-post in the other Phoenix thread, meant to post it here...

YouTuber Kyle McDougall has posted some scans on IG that seem to look quite a bit more natural than some of the others I've seen posted in this thread and elsewhere. See below...

 

[Henning Serger]

It is mind boggling to me how much this company accomplishes with about 200 people.

Absolutely!
That was also my impression at my factory visit there. It was all perfectly organised for us, all employees were extremely polite, open-minded and friendly. Every question was answered in detail. And then this wonderful self-ironic humour - I have laughed so much that day .

The technology was absolutely impressive. And you really felt the spirit there, that the Ilford team simply love what they produce in their factory.
A really enthusiastic team.
We've got so much information on that day that is was challenging to keep all in mind. That day was certainly one of the most interesting days in my life.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Indeed, it really is an achievement.

@Henning Serger thank you for your wonderful post above.

Angus, you're welcome.
But let's send a big, big cordial "thank you" to the 'Brave Knights of Knutsford' in Mobberley for their decision to start this Marathon of establishing colour film production in their factory.
A huge and very important step for the whole industry.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[rcphoto]

My 2 rolls should be here Monday.