First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

[QuisAmet]

I, for one, will be making a purchase for every batch they do. Any new player in the market is a great thing. I'm not too sure if it can be compared to any other efforts during the heights of film production

 

[Ian Grant]

Underwhelming after all the hype, but it's now clear why the marketing was into the fringes. It's not a film that is anywhere close to competing with Fuji or Kodak, but Ilford have to start somewhere.

Ian

 

[Flighter]

Exposure tests and cross-processing tests.

@analogwisdom Thanks for posting the link to Shaka1277's video, the E6 cross processing results are very interesting.

 

[Flighter]

Well, I think you are missing very important points here:
1. Fujifilm and Velvia 50 reformulation: They started that R&D process in 2005, and at that time the global market for standard photographic film (non-instant film) was still almost 2 billion units p.a.. And when they introduced it in 2007 the market was still more than 1 billion units p.a.
In 2023 the global market for standard films (non-instant) is less than 100 million units. So Harman is operating with their project in a completely different market, with a fraction of the former volume. And a fraction of former income.
Furthermore Fujifilm has been for decades a huge multi-billion Dollar company. Harman with its about 200 heads staff is absolutely tiny compard to Fujifilm.
And Fujifilm had to "only" reformulate Velvia 50. But Harman has to design a completely new product from scratch.

2. Kodak also had a fundament and very good base with Ektachrome E100G. New E100 is different in some parameters but not an entirely new or fundamentally different film. And wasn't perfect at the introduction either.
Also Kodak is a much much bigger film manufacturer than Harman, with bigger resources.

Please look at the Ilford partner forum here, there you can find the financial data of Harman technology.
It is a relatively small company. It is profitable, but far away from being a rich company with huge financial resources.
Colour film is an absolute high-tech product, and belongs to the most sophisticating and challenging products in the chemical industry. It is extremely difficult to produce, both in technological and economical terms.
Therefore Harman's approach to be very honest and open-minded about their R&D and the product, including all its quirks and limitations, and reduce the financial risks by selling the product to their customers who want to support that project, is absolutely the right way.
That policy increases the chances that this whole project can be a success in the long term.

I have so far visited five different film manufacturers/factories, and three of them are either in the colour film business, or preparing for it. From my detailed discussions and what I have seen there I know quite well what is needed for a successful colour film production.
And most photrio-members are still underestimating both the technological and financial challenges of it in the current market environment.

Harman has chosen a more conservative, less-risky, step-by-step long-term approach / strategy.
And that is the best they can do!
No one is forced to buy this new Phoenix film. I am a big fan of the technologically best and most advanced films, and I prefer this high-tech, premium quality material for about 98% of my photography, like Delta 100.
But nevertheless I will buy this new film, and I will certainly have fun with it, and I will find photographic subjects for it, like I have found for former ADOX Color Implosion for example.
So I will definitely do my part to support the "Brave Knights of Knutsford". I am using Ilford products for decades, and I have always been very satiesfied with them. Therefore it is a no-brainer for me to help them with this amazing, but very challenging long-term project.

Best regards,
Henning

Many thanks for this post, Henning.

 

[LeoniD]

I went from "meh" when seeing spec sheet to "nice!!!" when seeing select thumb sized examples and then back to "meh" when seeing more larger sized examples form Phoenix.

I'll form my own opinion after I scan and print Phoenix 200. But I also know now that I should reevaluate my (low) opinion of Orwo NC500 and Lomochrome Color '92. It seems that everything Phoenix has over them is just... marketing. In everything else they seem to be ahead of Phoenix.

So, good job Harman, Lomo/Orwo! I hope they can all keep making progress in the years to come...

Look at logan2z post. ORWO is complete garbage compared to this

 

[halfaman]

Some test rolls were processed in a lab I know for one of the photographers Ilford sent samples, it was developed and scanned (Noristu) the same way they do hundreds of C-41 rolls every day. One employee described Phoenix as "horrible".

But, ok, if this is just about funding a color film project I will be there buying a couple of rolls to make Harman feel my love. Same way I did with Orwo and Adox.

 

[BobUK]

Do you think anyone would notice if the film was damaged in customs X-ray machines?

 

[koraks]

Do you think anyone would notice if the film was damaged in customs X-ray machines?

Depends on the x-ray dose. But if that's high enough, then yes, someone's bound to notice. Maybe not everyone, but some people would, for sure.

 

[foc]

I wish Harman Phoenix Colour Film the very best of luck.

For what it is worth, here is a comparison.

Harman Phoenix Vs Kodak Gold Vs Lomography CN100

 

[brbo]

Look at logan2z post. ORWO is complete garbage compared to this

I've shot enough Orwo NC500 and seen enough of examples of Phoenix now to form my own opinion (of course, I'm still waiting on my own Phoenix shots). But, I'd like to hear you name one area where you consider Phoenix to be better than NC500.

 

[perkeleellinen]

Seems like it wasn't too many years ago that there were worries over the end of colour film: too difficult to make, too expensive, not enough demand. The film world worried about a monochrome future, now we've got a new entrant in the market.

All the European manufacturers take this interesting iterative approach of selling R&D outcomes to raise funds and awareness. Something that massive operatives like Fuji and Kodak don't need to do. I think there could develop a bit of keen competition within Euro film firms which will hopefully drive innovation.

 

[Flighter]

…it was … scanned (Noristu) the same way they do hundreds of C-41 rolls every day…

This may be the issue, my understanding is that the normal C-41 settings aren't optimal due to the lack of a mask. Harman's data sheet includes suggested scanner settings for this reason, do you know if the scanner settings were adjusted?

 

[Flighter]

I think there could develop a bit of keen competition within Euro film firms which will hopefully drive innovation.

It will be interesting to see how Wolfen NC200 (rumoured to be released in the first half of 2024) compares.

 

[Flighter]

I wish Harman Phoenix Colour Film the very best of luck.

For what it is worth, here is a comparison.

Harman Phoenix Vs Kodak Gold Vs Lomography CN100

Thanks for this.

I've lost count, who produces Lomography CN100? Is it based on the 1980s Kodacolor VR?

 

[George Mann]

I wish Harman Phoenix Colour Film the very best of luck.

For what it is worth, here is a comparison.

Harman Phoenix Vs Kodak Gold Vs Lomography CN100

Their scanner isn't properly calibrated, which seems to be the norm these days do to the color profiles of biggest selling films.

Lomo CN 100 is Kodacolor VR, which is more color accurate than Gold.

 

[George Mann]

Thanks for this.

I've lost count, who produces Lomography CN100? Is it based on the 1980s Kodacolor VR?

Yes.

 

[foc]

This may be the issue, my understanding is that the normal C-41 settings aren't optimal due to the lack of a mask.

A few years ago when I had a minilab and we came across a maskless colour film, we simply put a blank/clear piece of Fuji C200 film under the Fuji SP3000 auto carrier and between the light source and the negative.

It worked a treat and very little manual correction was needed.

 

[LeoniD]

I've shot enough Orwo NC500 and seen enough of examples of Phoenix now to form my own opinion (of course, I'm still waiting on my own Phoenix shots). But, I'd like to hear you name one area where you consider Phoenix to be better than NC500.

Well, for starters, it has color. I'd love to see your examples of NC500

 

[Flighter]

Yes.

Thanks George.

 

[Henning Serger]

Lets get some perspective.

Color Mission was a miracle. Nobody mistook Orwo NC500 or LomoChrome '92 for a miracle, yet they (at least '92) look to be lightyears ahead of Phoenix at the moment.

Concerning perspective:
Please don't forget that InovisCoat needed about a whole decade to get to their best CN emulsion. And that despite of having the original Agfa production machinery and a significant part of (but not all of) the former Agfa emulsion know-how.
So that Harman managed to create the Phoenix film in such a short time span is indeed really impressive, and deserves a lot of appreciation and respect.

But concerning future perspective we also should remain realistic:
Harman has started here a Marathon. It will be a very hard Marathon. It will take many, many years to come close(r) to the quality level of the current Kodak and Fujifilm amateur colour negative films. Kodak and Fuji have been multi-billion dollar companies for decades in the film era, with hundreds of million dollars spend on R&D over the decades.
Harman cannot come to the same level in only some years (if at all). Patience and endurance are needed. And the more we support them, the better the chances are for their success in the long term.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Many thanks for this post, Henning.

You're welcome.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

If they come out with a roll film version, I may be tempted... even though I'm not much of a colour guy...

 

[albireo]

I wish Harman Phoenix Colour Film the very best of luck.

For what it is worth, here is a comparison.

Harman Phoenix Vs Kodak Gold Vs Lomography CN100

@foc, this is great, thanks for sharing. Parallel comparisons such as this one will I think be way more useful than a generic youtuber doing a survey on the new film only. That's because those 'one film reviews' are a feast of confounders and make little sense if you're not the reviewer or use exactly the reviewer's workflow.

In the samples you posted above, we can at least factor out a few variables (those listed in the text), understand what is the benchmark being set, and gain an intuition on quality expectations. I would assume the implicit benchmark for this reviewer are those Gold 200 scans, or perhaps those Kodacolor VR scans.

I don't use Lomo/Kodacolor, but those Gold 200 scans in the review above are, on my calibrated Eizo monitor, utter shite. Dogpi$$. CaKa. Myself, a simple amateur who shoots 90% black and white and 10% Gold, Ektar and Ultramax, can obtain from Gold results that are to my taste way better than those. I use a very simple, controlled workflow, which means that, in turn, many people out there will be able to get much better results than my own.

Those Gold scans are so bad, that if I were considering approaching 35mm C41 photography for the first time with Gold 200 as my everyday stock, based on these samples alone, I would instantly desist.

So my point is - we haven't really begun to even scratch the surface on how Harman Phoenix will look in real usage, and that includes when scanning. More relative comparisons with a well performing benchmark will be helpful for this.

So again thanks for posting!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Concerning perspective:
Please don't forget that InovisCoat needed about a whole decade to get to their best CN emulsion. And that despite of having the original Agfa production machinery and a significant part of (but not all of) the former Agfa emulsion know-how.
So that Harman mamaged to create the Phoenix film in such a short time span is indeed really impressive, and deserves a lot of appreciation and respect.

But concerning future perspective we also should remain realistic:
Harman has started here a Marathon. It will be a very hard Marathon. It will take many, many years to come close(r) to the quality level of the current Kodak and Fujifilm amateur colour negative films. Kodak and Fuji have been multi-billion dollar companies for decades in the film era, with hundreds of million dollars spend on R&D over the decades.
Harman cannot come to the same level in only some years (if at all). Patience and endurance are needed. And the more we support them, the better the chances are for their success in the long term.

Best regards,
Henning

+1!

 

[Henning Serger]

Lomo CN 100 is Kodacolor VR,

No, if you compare Lomo CN 100 under identical test conditions with Kodak ProImage 100, you will see..........no differences.
Lomo CN 100 was introduced at a time when film sales were still in a significant decline. And at that time ProImage was only offered in some emerging markets, not in the main markets NA, Europe, Japan.
So for economical reasons it was by far the best solution to use ProImage for that deal with Lomography. Trying to bring back a long discontinued film (for which you prabably even don't get all raw materials anymore) would have been much too costly. Would have been a very bad move in a situation with severe financial problems (please don't forget Chapter 11 in 2011 for Kodak; and that in 2014 they were really short before stopping film production entirely).

Best regards,
Henning