First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

[cerber0s]

maybe that dye is no longer allowed to be used

On believe that is still used on Fomapan B&W films. At least the developer comes back bright green.

 

[Henning Serger]

In any case, it sounds to me like they're currently still pushing those decisions ahead of them.

Concerning that topic of multi-pass coating, they can certainly be relaxed, and are in no hurry. Because they have still a significant amount of free coating capacity (as almost all film manufacturers; the production bottleneck of most film manufacturers is the film confectioning).

The last time Harman offered factory tours for interested customers was in autumn 2013. That was when I visited them for the factory tour. Simon Galley was our tour guide, and did an amazing job (he is one of the finest persons I've ever met in this industry; he is really missed).
At that time demand for 35mm film and photo paper was still decreasing, but 120 already had a small uptick.
And at that time Harman operated their big coating machine at only three days per month. And in this three days the machine was running in 3-shift operation for the whole day (24h). Reason for such a schedule: Energy efficiency, as you need much less energy for heating-up the drying tunnel.
Because of the significantly increased demand during this last decade they are now definitely running their coating machine on more days per month. But the demand increase has also not been so huge that they are now running the coating line at full capacity, there is still free capacity. Therefore at least from that aspect a potential multi-pass coating process for a colour film won't be a problem. In the Harman video there is one part showing the head of the pilot coater in operation, and that is the same head we've seen in operation at the tour (and the pilot coater is a scaled-down version of their big production coater).

Best regards,
Henning

 

[0x001688936CA08]

Maybe I’m old school, but when did it become the norm to release your R&D ‘failures’ for profit to fund future R&D? In my mind, a respected company such as Harman has taken a hit for putting out such an inferior product.

I think the product and marketing we’re seeing is the perfect way for Harman to start building a colour film business.

The product perfectly fits a particular market, and was marketed masterfully, in my opinion.

Sure, it’s not a pro film, but they’re not saying it's a pro film. It’s quirky and weird, and they’re going out of their way to manage expectations.

Literally every product that is not as good as it’s descendants could be classed as an R&D “failure”.

If Harman generate enough revenue on this "R&D project" to put back into a better colour film (a film
that old school people like yourself might call “not a failure”) then it’s a success.

It’s pretty lame to shit on a company that is earnestly trying to build a colour film business in 2023.

 

[analogwisdom]

Phoenix seems to be a solid film by 1970-80s standards

I'm happy for Harman and excited about this new film and where it's going - but this is a stretch. Kodacolor II and Vericolor II were the consumer and pro C-41 Kodak films of the early to mid 70s and they had vastly better granularity, sharpness, and color accuracy than Phoenix.

 

[Brad Deputy]

They likely have improved it even now, and will continue to make improvements until the next time they "freeze" the formula for a production run. I wouldn't be surprised if they paused in mid-summer 2023 to produce what we have today. I'm curious what their "release" cadence could be (terms used in the software industry) Once a year?

 

[Henning Serger]

It's also really cool to see how young those fellas at Harman R&D looked. Usually when you think photographic film industry, it's always older folks. Nice to see the younger generation getting "passed the torch" and being passionate about film.

We talked about that topic a lot at the factory tour in Mobberley. And already at that time Harman started hiring young engineers, one of them did the demonstration of the pilot coater for us.
And in the last years I've met quite a lot of younger chemists and engineers in our industry. Meanwhile we partly have the opposite problem: Lots of very young, very motivated but unexperienced folks. And a lack of older, very experienced ones...... My experience in different industries: A mix of old(er), very experienced, and young(er), ambitious and motivated is the perfect combination. Looks like Harman is going that way.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Agulliver]

I've been able to view some sample images now, on various sites and videos, and I think I have some ideas forming. A relatively bright but cloudy winter day with diffuse lighting might well suit this film. It's clear that it is possible to get genuinely good images from it, and it's also possible to get genuinely bad images from it. I think I'll try both playing it safe and doing unlikely things with it....though may well not get around to finishing a roll until after Christmas depending on a number of factors - not least of which is my two favourite SLRs need some attention.

 

[George Mann]

If Harman can produce a color film from scratch in this day and age, you better believe that Kodak can bring back Kodachrome!

 

[BrianShaw]

…

It’s pretty lame to shit on a company that is earnestly trying to build a colour film business in 2023.

Critical thinking, having a different opinion, and not sharing a common enthusiasm for the film now being offered shouldn’t be misconstrued as “shitting”…

 

[Ten301]

It’s pretty lame to shit on a company earnestly trying to build a colour film business in 2023.

I’m not “shitting” on the company, and actually wish them well.

My issue is the new trend in this business to peddle to the public for cash your R&D frogs, warts and all, on your way to the prince. Did you see Kodak with their hands out when resurrecting Ektachome? Fuji when they had to reformulate Velvia 50? I’m sure there was a lot of trial and error for both. Would Toyota release a Camry with known design flaws to fund a better one? Nope. All of this may sound a bit dramatic, and it is in a way. But the trend of the public funding corporate R&D grows every year.

I don’t know what market Phoenix fits “perfectly” into, except perhaps the Lomo market, those who enjoy purple and turquoise film. And yes, they are legitimate. But I don’t believe that’s the market Harman was aiming for. It’s just that they are trying to develop a mainstream color negative film, this is where they are in their R&D, it’s not nearly ready for prime time, so we might as well sell it to the Lomophiles to play with and make some bucks.

But again, I wish Harman well. Perhaps had Phoenix been a little more polished before they released it, even just getting somewhat closer to Color Mission. Anyone has to admit from what has been released thus far, Phoenix results are pretty dreadful by any standards. No amount of marketing can change that.

 

[Required]

The marketing is indeed very well executed.
And perfectly balanced between new development and a wish to keep on pushing. Not stopping and try to reap a fast ROI.

It’s a great achievement and for that they should be credited. I will for sure buy their Phoenix.

 

[LeoniD]

I'm happy for Harman and excited about this new film and where it's going - but this is a stretch. Kodacolor II and Vericolor II were the consumer and pro C-41 Kodak films of the early to mid 70s and they had vastly better granularity, sharpness, and color accuracy than Phoenix.

Well I've used Kodacolor II that expired in 1984, but was freezer-stored since purchase, and I have to say that I'm not particularly impressed with the color accuracy. Either purplish or bronze skintone, and overall not that much better than Phoenix. Harman's film could be a competitor to this. My photos are shitty, but I don't have any better examples atm

 

[George Mann]

Literally every product that is not as good as it’s descendants could be classed as an R&D “failure”.

Gold is inferior to Kodacolor VR.

 

[George Mann]

Would Toyota release a Camry with known design flaws to fund a better one? Nope.

They infact have done just that!

 

[0x001688936CA08]

Critical thinking, having a different opinion, and not sharing a common enthusiasm for the film now being offered shouldn’t be misconstrued as “shitting”…

True enough.

Let me restate my point:

Not being able to think critically about Harman as a business and the market conditions, sharing opinions that focus on the less-than-ideal aspects of their product that Harman are actively calling out, and then expressing disappointment due to a lack of enthusiasm about a product that is obviously not intended for you personally, is pretty lame.

 

[pentaxuser]

I'm happy for Harman and excited about this new film and where it's going - but this is a stretch. Kodacolor II and Vericolor II were the consumer and pro C-41 Kodak films of the early to mid 70s and they had vastly better granularity, sharpness, and color accuracy than Phoenix.

Yes I had a look at my mid 70s photo album of Kodak consumer films and the prints looked to be better than what is currently on offer from Harman. However I have yet to see a replica scan of a Phoenix 200 negative printed optically under an enlarger

Such prints may made a better comparison

pentaxuser

 

[0x001688936CA08]

Gold is inferior to Kodacolor VR.

So you would class gold as an R&D 'failure'?

 

[George Mann]

So you would class gold as an R&D 'failure'?

More of a misguided tweak.

 

[pentaxuser]

Congrats on post 1600!

Thanks On that basis I'll go mad money-wise on Xmas day and open a tin of corned beef

pentaxuser

 

[Ballinderry-Michael]

Nosing around the Web, I found that the fella south of our border that I buy from has stock. So I changed my mind and have a couple of rolls on the way, intending to send them to Harman for processing (I'm out of Bellini C41, which I sometimes use with XP2). First colour negative film for a few years. We have the sort of light here that Agulliver described a few posts up: his advice sounds wise.

 

[pentaxuser]

That they got this far in just 12 months is difficult to understate. And for everyone getting terribly upset about contrast and colour reproduction, go watch the video that has the interview with the Harman photo engineers/ chemists - one of them literally states that the next job will be to sort the masking and anti-halation.

Good point but given the speed at which Harman got here, it sort of begs the question of why it didn't consider waiting a bit longer

pentaxuser

 

[0x001688936CA08]

... Phoenix results are pretty dreadful by any standards. No amount of marketing can change that.

Sure, dreadful is a bit further than I would go, but it's kind of like pointing out that Mountain Dew isn't Champagne.

 

[mtnbkr]

I bought a couple rolls today for two reasons:
To help support the effort so they can maybe see enough of a market to continue refining the product.
And I happen to like funky color films. I would never say that 20 years ago, but today if I want perfect color and low/no grain, I can shoot digital. I shoot color film for fun and to enjoy the "quirks". I happen to like Lomo Purple and Metropolis for the same reason. I'm more of a traditionalist with B&W, but I'm happy to experiment with unusual emulsions in color.

Chris

 

[Flighter]

Ambitious!

Someone seems to have confused the ISO rating with the price

 

[analogwisdom]

Well I've used Kodacolor II that expired in 1984, but was freezer-stored since purchase, and I have to say that I'm not particularly impressed with the color accuracy. Either purplish or bronze skintone, and overall not that much better than Phoenix. Harman's film could be a competitor to this

I am also an expired film lover but I think we can both agree that, even freezer stored, film that expired nearly 40 years ago isn't going to perform the same as when it was fresh.