First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

[Andrew O'Neill]

My students know what it is!

 

[pbromaghin]

Me and my big mouth. I was in Mikes Camera in Lone Tree, CO to get some Ilford FB paper (I never dreamed they would stock it as they used to pretend film didn't exist) and they had 3 rolls of Phoenix. I bought 2.

Now the question is how to shoot it? At 130, or 200? Do both for every shot? Camera meter or hand-held incident? Try some flash? Put one through the new-to-me Nikon FM or FE? Test to see if they are clued in for scanning and compare it with whatever I can come up with on my Epson V550? Or skip their scans and just do my own?

Any recommendations?

I now have only one roll. I gave one to a young student in my darkroom class. She was talking about the product and said she wanted to try it. I reached into my backpack and tossed her a box and said, "Here, have at it".

 

[Agulliver]

My local camera store guy was talking to an Ilford rep who told him that with each version of this new film, there will come improvements. They will also put out different ISO versions if this new film is a success. He was also told that Ilford wants to become "the" colour film manufacturer.

that matches more or less with what Harman are saying on social media. They're being quite responsive to people now and the picture emerging is that their aim is to improve the C41 film with every new version they release. The next may be coming in March 2024. They are also aiming to produce 100, 400 and possibly 800 ISO versions and they've hinted at 120 - but are not even hinting at a timeframe for this.

 

[pentaxuser]

. The next may be coming in March 2024. They are also aiming to produce 100, 400 and possibly 800 ISO versions and they've hinted at 120 -

Can you say where Harman specifically state this date and do we know for definite that its specific aim is to eventually end up with a Kodak-like colour film. Just to make myself clear I mean one in which this version's attributes disappear

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[BrianShaw]

I love a good mystery, and here we have several!

 

[brbo]

Yes I can speculate like others as to Phoenix is under the Harman brand but I can't recall seeing anything so far from Harman that makes it clear

Yes, sad that people with access to Harman can’t seem to come up with good questions and/or waste their time listening to themselves in their youtube “interviews”.

Then again, Harman knows Photrio is a non-factor and I think they actually prefer their target audience for Phoenix to not be too Photriotic.

 

[Agulliver]

Here's what Harman said to me: "Hopefully, you have picked up from the information released so far that this product will be under the HARMAN Photo brand and not the ILFORD Photo brand for reasons that will become clear."

Reading the above again it is as if I was being told that it will become obvious. Well it hasn't as yet become clear to me why Phoenix is under the Harman brand

Yes I can speculate like others as to Phoenix is under the Harman brand but I can't recall seeing anything so far from Harman that makes it clear

pentaxuser

Can you say where Harman specifically state this date and do we know for definite that its specific aim is to eventually end up with a Kodak-like colour film. Just to make myself clear I mean one in which this version's attributes disappear

Thanks

pentaxuser

Harman sent you that message in November. I would have thought it was obvious now why the Phoenix film is under Harman's own name. It's a colour film, and they do not have the rights to sell colour film under the Ilford name. Additionally in one of the videos that dropped on Friday last week, people from Harman made it clear that they can only sell B&W products under the Ilford name and therefore used the Harman name for this.

Can I specifically say? Sure, I could spend hours going back through Youtube videos and Instagram/facebook posts and then collect all the links together, but you could still choose to disbelieve what Harman are telling you. And I've better things to do. Or you could choose to trust that I've actually heard or seen those things written down.

The March date comes from a couple of retailers, notably Analogue Wonderland and Firstcall expect to get another shipment in March.

Harman have never stated that their aim is to end up with a Kodak-like colour film. You are making that up.

What they have said, in multiple videos and social media posts is that they intend to improve the film with every production run, towards something more "normal"....so "better" in the traditional sense. If they succeed, it is likely to be closer to Kodak C41 film than Phoenix is but they've never said that they're trying to make something that is "Kodak Like" (or Fuji-like or Agfa-like or Ferrania-like or Konica-like). They've also specifically stated they aim to eventually make 100 and 400 ISO colour film and maybe 800 if the market is there.

 

[warden]

Another tour…

 

[pentaxuser]

Harman sent you that message in November. I would have thought it was obvious now why the Phoenix film is under Harman's own name. It's a colour film, and they do not have the rights to sell colour film under the Ilford name. Additionally in one of the videos that dropped on Friday last week, people from Harman made it clear that they can only sell B&W products under the Ilford name and therefore used the Harman name for this.

Can I specifically say? Sure, I could spend hours going back through Youtube videos and Instagram/facebook posts and then collect all the links together, but you could still choose to disbelieve what Harman are telling you. And I've better things to do. Or you could choose to trust that I've actually heard or seen those things written down.

The March date comes from a couple of retailers, notably Analogue Wonderland and Firstcall expect to get another shipment in March.

Harman have never stated that their aim is to end up with a Kodak-like colour film. You are making that up.

What they have said, in multiple videos and social media posts is that they intend to improve the film with every production run, towards something more "normal"....so "better" in the traditional sense. If they succeed, it is likely to be closer to Kodak C41 film than Phoenix is but they've never said that they're trying to make something that is "Kodak Like" (or Fuji-like or Agfa-like or Ferrania-like or Konica-like). They've also specifically stated they aim to eventually make 100 and 400 ISO colour film and maybe 800 if the market is there.

Yes by Kodak-like I intended to convey that its intention was to make a more normal colour negative film Indeed you yourself have said above: If they succeed, it is likely to be closer to Kodak than Phoenix is so on that we do not appear to that far apart

By not obvious to me despite what the e-mail would be obvious as to why it wasn't Ilford I was simply trying to point out that since the announcement I haven't seen a Harman executive explain what has been explained here about the legalities of brand ownership

Still, never mind and I am sorry that you feel that tetchy about anyone who asks question and make comments about this film that doesn't accord with your sentiments about Harman's new product

pentaxuser

 

[mshchem]

I received my 2 rolls of Phoenix. Now I just need to get out and shoot it.

one more thing Adox owns what was Ciba-Geigy's research line in Marly, formerly the Ilfochrome print material source. That could turn into something too.

 

[cerber0s]

that matches more or less with what Harman are saying on social media. They're being quite responsive to people now and the picture emerging is that their aim is to improve the C41 film with every new version they release. The next may be coming in March 2024. They are also aiming to produce 100, 400 and possibly 800 ISO versions and they've hinted at 120 - but are not even hinting at a timeframe for this.

Can you say where Harman specifically state this date and do we know for definite that its specific aim is to eventually end up with a Kodak-like colour film. Just to make myself clear I mean one in which this version's attributes disappear

Thanks

pentaxuser

I listened to an interview with Harman representatives. They said the end goal is to have a range of color films that rival the best in the industry, and that there’s a ten year plan for that.

 

[Agulliver]

This should be made mandatory reading and if possible "A sticky note"

Does anyone here know for sure the exact situation regarding the rights to the "Ilford" name and trademark?

We know that Harman have a license to use them on B&W photography related products, eg all the Ilford films, traditional papersI and chemicals, and nobody challenged their use of it on the new dark tent. We know the "other Ilford" attaches the name to "Ilford Gallerie", colour single use film cameras, colour inkjet products and the "Ilfocolor" film that was recently available.

But who ultimately owns it? Were the licenses purchased from the receiver in perpetuity or does some other entity now own them and the agreements need to be renegotiated at various times?

I did read somewhere that what we call the "other Ilford" actually owns the name, and that relationships between them and Harman were frosty until quite recently. But I only read that on one site, and I don't actually remember which site it was....so I take it with a pinch of salt.

Are those the only two entities currently able to use the Ilford name and trademark?

 

[Agulliver]

I listened to an interview with Harman representatives. They said the end goal is to have a range of color films that rival the best in the industry, and that there’s a ten year plan for that.

It will be fantastic if they can achieve that, even in ten years. I doubt I shall buy each version of the film but I look on with interest at what people can do with each improved film. I'm really happy to hear that they're even thinking about 800ISO. Because that's my specific interest.

It will be interesting to see where they are in 2-3 years time.

 

[brbo]

But who ultimately owns it?

Ilford Imaging Europe GmbH.

Were the licenses purchased from the receiver in perpetuity or does some other entity now own them and the agreements need to be renegotiated at various times?

According to IPO most of Harman's licenses for stuff sold under "Ilford" trademark are up for renewal in 2025.

 

[koraks]

Right. Let's see what it does.

 

[Anon Ymous]

View attachment 356010
Right. Let's see what it does.

Oh, you got a bit more than a couple.

 

[cerber0s]

View attachment 356010
Right. Let's see what it does.

Sweet! I can’t get my hands on any for a reasonable price.

 

[brbo]

@koraks, I thought you said you were willing to back Harman's efforts by shooting a roll. That's a brick, you must've liked the results posted so far a LOT!

At least that means that Phoenix finally hit continental Europe. Maybe my order will finally ship next week.

 

[koraks]

That's a brick,

But it's not my brick, in all honesty.
I purchased only a few rolls to play with. I just happened to be in the shop as the shipment arrived. This does mean that mainland Europe has been supplied, but it seems sparingly so.

Sweet! I can’t get my hands on any for a reasonable price.

https://fotofilmfabriek.nl/product/harman-phoenix/

I think he'll ship to Sweden if you want him to. Just send him a message. Can't judge of course what you consider a reasonable price. I only know the retail margin is fairly thin as it is.

 

[cerber0s]

But it's not my brick, in all honesty.
I purchased only a few rolls to play with. I just happened to be in the shop as the shipment arrived. This does mean that mainland Europe has been supplied, but it seems sparingly so.

https://fotofilmfabriek.nl/product/harman-phoenix/

I think he'll ship to Sweden if you want him to. Just send him a message. Can't judge of course what you consider a reasonable price. I only know the retail margin is fairly thin as it is.

Thank you!

15.49 is a reasonable price. Footoimpex have them listed for 13.95, but sold out. One retailer here in Sweden also have them for 15.49, but sold out. The one retailer here that has them in stock only sells packs of three rolls, for 63 euros. That’s 21€ per roll!

I’ll happily support Harman and their project. I want my money to go to Harman though, not to the retailer who inflates the price. Such behavior should not be rewarded.

 

[koraks]

Thank you!

You're welcome; hope it helps in any way.

Most stores I think started accepting orders before they took delivery on the film. The 'sold out' products you see in Europe are in all likelihood in many cases products that are not even delivered to the end user, yet. So these stores are already 'sold out' before even receiving the first roll of film...
I also understand that the entire supply to mainland Europe is very, very limited, and it's also very, very late compared to the US. It seems mainland Europe is only being supplied as we speak and I heard a total number of rolls for Germany, Belgium and The Netherlands that was so ridiculously low as to be nearly unbelievable - and yet, it's probably true. Distribution also shows interesting differences compared to regular Ilford channels, which I find kind of puzzling.

Overall, the image that arises is that Harman has very strongly favored the American market: they were supplied in time for the actual product launch and seem to have received amounts that sort of meet the actual demand. This does not seem to be the case in mainland Europe. About the rest of the world we can only speculate, but I doubt it'll be much better.

Allegedly, a possible next batch might become available by March, but this seems to be very uncertain and the rumor also doesn't say if it's going to be the present incarnation of Phoenix or an incremental change of it.

So by all accounts it looks like most of what's been produced has been sold, or will be, shortly. For those who take a liking to the film, it may become a turbulent love affair.

 

[Ballinderry-Michael]

Sweet! I can’t get my hands on any for a reasonable price.

I got mine from thephotoshop.ie (in the EU part of Ireland, unlike me). They have more coming in on Tuesday and are taking pre-orders. You could try contacting them, in case they're not booked solid. The price when I bought mine was Euro 14.00 plus postage (sorry, my keyboard has lost my Euro symbol). Good luck!

 

[Flighter]

So by all accounts it looks like most of what's been produced has been sold, or will be, shortly. For those who take a liking to the film, it may become a turbulent love affair.

Analogue Wonderland are now showing Phoenix as sold out with "Restock coming soon".
Firstcall Photographic still show a pack of 2 rolls at £25.98 but say "Please Note: There is a restriction of only one pack of Phoenix per customer until the film becomes more freely available, in Spring 2024"

 

[koraks]

Part of this thread was split off as it dealt very specifically with the names Harman and Ilford and the distinction between business entities. You will find this new thread here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/harman-technology-vs-ilford-photo-vs-ilford-imaging-whats-in-a-name.203460

 

[mshchem]

I wonder how this new film behaves with longer exposure times? Could be it color shifts to Portra . I'm looking forward to giving this a try. The beauty of analog.