Film Ferrania p30

Film-Niko · Nov 20, 2020

Greg Davis said:
I used a sensitometer to expose the film and a densitometer to read the subsequent densities, then plotted the H&D curve and calculated the speed based on ISO methods. I have other videos covering which model of sensitometer and densitometer I used. Since I have a Master’s degree in photography, I know how to find film speed.

No one with knowledge here is doubting your qualification and your results. And I say thank you that you have published it on youtube, as lots of other youtubers - especially the young ones - unfortunately don't have the qualification to do real film tests with evalutions of the characteristic curve.
There are lots of so called "tests" of P30 online on youtube and on the hipster film pages, which just copy the marketing messages of Film Ferrania, claiming that this film is an ISO 80 speed film.
But as you, Adrian Bacon, me and all the other who have done real tests with a densitometre know, that is simply not true. This film has 2-3 stops less speed in reality. And its huge contrast and problematic curve shape make good quality prints very difficult. And for all these problems you pay a very high price.
I really wish Film Ferrania will do better in the future. I had supported their Kickstarter project, and I wish them well for the future.

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 20, 2020

Film-Niko said:
Of course. But I never said it is a sensitometre. Alessandro Serrao - with his lack of knowledge - is thinking one would use a sensitometre for the density tests of a characteristic curve, see his post. But a densitometre like the TRD-2 is used.
I should have been more precise, but is was very late when I posted it and I was tired.

No worries!

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 20, 2020

Film-Niko said:
No one with knowledge here is doubting your qualification and your results. And I say thank you that you have published it on youtube, as lots of other youtubers - especially the young ones - unfortunately don't have the qualification to do real film tests with evalutions of the characteristic curve.
There are lots of so called "tests" of P30 online on youtube and on the hipster film pages, which just copy the marketing messages of Film Ferrania, claiming that this film is an ISO 80 speed film.
But as you, Adrian Bacon, me and all the other who have done real tests with a densitometre know, that is simply not true. This film has 2-3 stops less speed in reality. And its huge contrast and problematic curve shape make good quality prints very difficult. And for all these problems you pay a very high price.
I really wish Film Ferrania will do better in the future. I had supported their Kickstarter project, and I wish them well for the future.

My densitometre testing indicated that an EI of 32 is best for me. Field tests confirmed that. Most films that I have worked with over the years have only needed one half to two thirds stop more exposure. P30... needs more if I want luminous shadows... The great thing about using a densitometre is that it gets you to where you want to go quickly, with less film wasted.

m00dawg · Nov 20, 2020

Set your compass, I'm not an expert at densitometry or anything and have only just started doing my own exposure tests and curves. But one thing I was wondering about. P30 has "cinema" pedigree correct? As I recall cinema films tend to have more contrast by default than print films? Curious if/how this impacts the equations.

I've shot P30 at ISO 80 and 50 using XTOL-R and get contrasty but good results. I need to do my own dev tests to find good dev times and then do my own field tests. But I'm also kinda wondering how far to go with that. If I want a tame film, there's plenty of options available. P30 has a unique look I want to keep.

Roughly speaking it and HR50 look kinda similar to me and I've since done tests of HR50 with my process (when I rated it at 50). I need to do my practical testing (taking photos) with the settings I found, but I ended up with an ISO of 3 for that film. Well below 50 but at those speeds I found it had a good balance of shadows and higlights and tamed the punchy look quite a bit. I could be messing something up here so don't take these numbers with any weight though I will say I tested CHS ii and FP4 as well and those were pretty spot on (my ISO speed for FP4 was around 80).

MattKing · Nov 20, 2020

m00dawg said:
As I recall cinema films tend to have more contrast by default than print films? Curious if/how this impacts the equations.

Isn't it the reverse?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 20, 2020

m00dawg said:
Roughly speaking it and HR50 look kinda similar to me and I've since done tests of HR50 with my process (when I rated it at 50). I need to do my practical testing (taking photos) with the settings I found, but I ended up with an ISO of 3 for that film. Well below 50 but at those speeds I found it had a good balance of shadows and higlights and tamed the punchy look quite a bit.

Is this Adox HR-50 aka Adox Scala 50 that you are talking about? It is supposed do well even when pushed to 100 in reversal processing. That's 5 stops difference!!

Mackinaw · Nov 20, 2020

Andrew O'Neill said:
My densitometre testing indicated that an EI of 32 is best for me. ......

I agree with this. I shoot P30 at EI of 40, and am getting excellent negatives.

Jom B.

twelvetone12 · Nov 21, 2020

Greg Davis said:
ISO standards require a certain density at a particular exposure. It is entirely possible that Ferrania is using a different standard than ISO, but labeling the speed as such rather than EI like Kodak TMZ 3200.

Well they do write ASA instead of ISO, IIRC somewhere they stated that, at least for the alpha version, they did not have time to do ISO testing. I personally found big differences batch-to-batch in this film (I shoot around 20), and the unanimous response is that I was surely doing something wrong. I wish Ferrania would do some proper testing and datasheets, I love P30 but I found it too unpredictable to use, but I only used the alpha version, not the current production one.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 22, 2020

Film-Niko said:
Of course. But I never said it is a sensitometre. Alessandro Serrao - with his lack of knowledge - is thinking one would use a sensitometre for the density tests of a characteristic curve, see his post. But a densitometre like the TRD-2 is used.
I should have been more precise, but is was very late when I posted it and I was tired.

No, I've asked you if you have used a correctly calibrated sensitometer, right?. You answered me that, yes, you've use a Heiland trd-2, right? Heiland tdr-2 is NOT a sensitometer.
End of the story.
You have proven to not know the difference between a sensitometer and a densitometer. Period.
The fantastic results of Scott Micciche proves that Ferrania P30 can be exposed @80 and give good results.

Adrian Bacon · Nov 22, 2020

MattKing said:
I wonder if p30 might have unusual reciprocity response - something that might yield a different speed when used with relatively short duration electronic flash.

dunno. Since my H+D curve has been linked in this thread, the strobe I used is ~5500K, and has a flash duration that is never faster than 1/800 of a second. It does tend to change color temperature a little (get warmer) as you dial the power down, but the full power to minimum power swing is less than 500K, so the flash is always right in 5000K to 5500K range.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 22, 2020

Film-Niko said:
Then you must not listen to yourself, as you was the one who mentioned a sensitometre in connection with the density measurements for cc's.
All your posts demonstrate clearly that you don't have any knowledge about this topic, and that you have never done such tests by yourself.

You don't know the ISO standard for determing the film speed, because it demands the use of a sensitometer to expose the film. By that definition, you cannot claim to calculate the film ISO speed if you don't have and use a sensitometer.
And all this posts about the true film speed are simply useless because one uses the EI that is best for his processing.

Adrian Bacon · Nov 22, 2020

Greg Davis said:
ISO standards require a certain density at a particular exposure. It is entirely possible that Ferrania is using a different standard than ISO, but labeling the speed as such rather than EI like Kodak TMZ 3200.

I suspect that is the case. None of their documentation indicates how they came up with the speed, what standard they where using, what light source, or what developer they used to get that speed. In my own evaluation, it’s very contrasty, even with very low intermittent agitation. I was told by the Ferrania rep that they strongly recommend against using XTOL with P30 as they haven’t gotten good results with it. I suspect it’s extremely sensitive to XTOL as a developer in terms of building contrast, but not so much in terms of film toe speed as it’s nowhere near ISO 80 in xtol if it’s to be developed to ISO contrast.

Scott Micciche · Nov 23, 2020

One of the reasons I've gotten very good results is that I treat the P30 like slide film, shooting in low range situations, very flat lighting. I can only surmise that on a movie set, where lighting is filled (except night scenes), P30 (and most films) work very well at this ISO. If contrasty scenes are your preferred images, then it is best to pull the film, as with many other films. I never did get good results with XTOL. It bothers me because we should get good results from XTOL, especially at 1:2. I need to split a roll and give it another try. I've not tried Rollei Supergrain because I can't find it in stock anywhere, but I am intrigued with D-23 and have not mixed that up in a long time. So far, however, TMAX Developer has been the #1 out of 15 rolls/4 cameras, it's sharp, the shadow detail is there, blacks are black and skin doesn't look like chalk. It seems to be a very underrated developer.

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 23, 2020

Scott Micciche said:
One of the reasons I've gotten very good results is that I treat the P30 like slide film, shooting in low range situations, very flat lighting. I can only surmise that on a movie set, where lighting is filled (except night scenes), P30 (and most films) work very well at this ISO. If contrasty scenes are your preferred images, then it is best to pull the film, as with many other films. I never did get good results with XTOL. It bothers me because we should get good results from XTOL, especially at 1:2. I need to split a roll and give it another try. I've not tried Rollei Supergrain because I can't find it in stock anywhere, but I am intrigued with D-23 and have not mixed that up in a long time. So far, however, TMAX Developer has been the #1 out of 15 rolls/4 cameras, it's sharp, the shadow detail is there, blacks are black and skin doesn't look like chalk. It seems to be a very underrated developer.

Very happy with D-23 at 1+1. Not P30, but I shot a roll of Ilford's Pan F 50 this past weekend (first time using this film) and developed it in D-23 1+3 EI 25. The results blew me away. This is a contrasty film which I shot in contrasty situations. I posted a couple in the gallery...

Scott Micciche · Nov 23, 2020

Andrew O'Neill said:
Very happy with D-23 at 1+1. Not P30, but I shot a roll of Ilford's Pan F 50 this past weekend (first time using this film) and developed it in D-23 1+3 EI 25. The results blew me away. This is a contrasty film which I shot in contrasty situations. I posted a couple in the gallery...

I agree, PanF can be a bastard to control, much like Rollei's Retro 80s, which I would like to try your D-23 1:1 @ EI 50.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 23, 2020

Being P30 a film derived from cinematography stock has anyone developed with d96?

Scott Micciche · Nov 23, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
Being P30 a film derived from cinematography stock has anyone developed with d96?

I have developed 3 rolls in D96. I used Kodak's recipe, 8 minutes gentle, constant agitation. The results were contrasty in certain scenes and soft. I believe the softness makes little difference for motion pictures, but for still photography, I felt too soft.

pentaxuser · Jan 28, 2021

relistan said:
I have no explanation, but he is quite thorough in all those tests so I'd be surprised if that's the reason.

I came back to this thread having just seen Greg's video via YouTube and not the link to it here . He is in the process of reviewing about 49 films against his standard film of Tri-X and the method he uses does seem to bear out the differences he shows in his two prints with MacBeth charts from the identical negatives he makes with his Tri-X and subject film, in this case P30

Looking at the rendition of the RGB colours I was surprised at how different P30 seemed to render them compared with all of the panchro film I have seen videos on so far . In fact, as Greg says, P30 appears more ortho than the new Ilford Ortho 80 Plus to the extent that if ortho is your thing then P30 may be the way to go

Has anyone taken two shots of similar scenes so they can compare red's rendition in P30 compared to say HP5+ or Tri-X or similar panchro film? If not has anyone got prints of known red objects on P30 that can be compared with similar reds from prints from other film negs?
Thanks

pentaxuser

wyofilm · Jan 28, 2021

pentaxuser said:
I came back to this thread having just seen Greg's video via YouTube and not the link to it here . He is in the process of reviewing about 49 films against his standard film of Tri-X and the method he uses does seem to bear out the differences he shows in his two prints with MacBeth charts from the identical negatives he makes with his Tri-X and subject film, in this case P30

Looking at the rendition of the RGB colours I was surprised at how different P30 seemed to render them compared with all of the panchro film I have seen videos on so far . In fact, as Greg says, P30 appears more ortho than the new Ilford Ortho 80 Plus to the extent that if ortho is your thing then P30 may be the way to go

Has anyone taken two shots of similar scenes so they can compare red's rendition in P30 compared to say HP5+ or Tri-X or similar panchro film? If not has anyone got prints of known red objects on P30 that can be compared with similar reds from prints from other film negs?
Thanks

pentaxuser

I'm also curious if someone has an idea on this. When I saw Greg's video I remembering wondering if the apparent orthochoromatic appearance was because it truly is orthochromatic or if the red response is a little less than other films. Given the nature of the toe of P30, red response wouldn't have to be reduced too much before it was swallowed up in the inky blackness of P30.

Adrian Bacon · Jan 28, 2021

wyofilm said:
I'm also curious if someone has an idea on this. When I saw Greg's video I remembering wondering if the apparent orthochoromatic appearance was because it truly is orthochromatic or if the red response is a little less than other films. Given the nature of the toe of P30, red response wouldn't have to be reduced too much before it was swallowed up in the inky blackness of P30.

Its extremely orthochromatic. I posted a photo of a stop sign in the resources section when I posted my replenished xtol development times. The stop sign rendered nearly black.

Adrian Bacon · Jan 28, 2021

Film Ferrania P30 H+D Curve with Replenished XTOL for 11:15 at 24C and 1 inversion every 2 minutes

wyofilm · Jan 29, 2021

Adrian Bacon said:
Film Ferrania P30 H+D Curve with Replenished XTOL for 11:15 at 24C and 1 inversion every 2 minutes

Thanks!

railwayman3 · Jan 29, 2021

And still Ferrania doesn't communicate with their Kickstarter supporters ? Don't be conned any longer, folk, and waste more time and money on rubbish film. Support the proper manufacturers, Ilford, Fuji, Kodak, Adox. Plenty of films to choose from.

relistan · Jan 29, 2021

railwayman3 said:
And still Ferrania doesn't communicate with their Kickstarter supporters ? Don't be conned any longer, folk, and waste more time and money on rubbish film. Support the proper manufacturers, Ilford, Fuji, Kodak, Adox. Plenty of films to choose from.

Did you follow their instructions on the site? https://www.filmferrania.com/kickstarter

Honestly not sure why people are still bent about the Kickstarter. I gave them money to get off the ground. I got some film for it. Got to try it early. That’s more than I’ve gotten from most other kickstarters.

railwayman3 · Jan 29, 2021

relistan said:
Did you follow their instructions on the site? https://www.filmferrania.com/kickstarter

Honestly not sure why people are still bent about the Kickstarter. I gave them money to get off the ground. I got some film for it. Got to try it early. That’s more than I’ve gotten from most other kickstarters.

I followed those instructions exactly. I've long since written-off the Kickstarter, but, as a successful businessman myself, I would have hoped that any genuine firm might have the courtesy to deal properly with its supporters and prospective customers ? Since you bring it up, I've never had (or even been offered) any film from them, free, early, bought at full price. or otherwise ?

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