E6 film developed in Rodinal (B&W) and than c41

[K2adie]

Hello,
I was doing some experiments recently, with expired Fuji Velvia 100 (expired in 2007).
-
So here is the method I used.

I shot the film in iso 50,
and I developed it in rodinal (made by me) in 100:1 for one hour and I dont use fixer.
After 1 hour (remember skipping fixing)
I take the film out from the tank, let the film sit under light so film can fog.
I'm not experienced in E6 whatsoever but I think in E6 you use a chemical to fog the film. Am I right on that?
--
Alright, after about 30 minutes or so (doesnt really matter I guess)
I put the film back to the reel and develop it with c41 chemicals (which are made by me as well)
my formula is two step c41 developer, like diafine you dont mix A with B.
---
After developing it I bleach the film, and than fix it.

My results arent professionally usable but better than Cross I believe.

My question is, Im not that experienced in darkroom to be honest and positives I'm getting too white (yes, I'm getting positives). Example will be given.

I can scan my negatives, do some photshop stuff and get somewhat lomography looking e6-ish images.

I need suggestions for developing times because what I feel like is if my positives come out 1 or 2 stops lower they will be good use!

Shot using Hasselblad 500C + 80mm 2.8 CT
Fuji Velvia 100 (expired 2007)
Scanned with Canon 8600F

Results:
one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/k2adir/25391439121/
Two: https://www.flickr.com/photos/k2adir/25458148466/
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here is photo of the positive: https://www.instagram.com/p/BCenZW9NMrR/?taken-by=k2adir
video of the positive/negative right after BW dev: https://www.instagram.com/p/BCeHFa-NMpG/?taken-by=k2adir

---

I'm a collage student and I cannot throw away that much of film for my experiments that is why I'm asking help (or you may donate some film to this broke kid ). Please give me suggestions for dev times, do you experiments and share with me. I mean do all that stuff. E6 chems are getting expensive, cross sucks. It wont be professional enough, yeah I got that but it will be usuable for daily shootings and hobbies, etc.

Temp I use was room temp, about 20-23Celcius. My C41 dev doesnt care for temp to be honest. It gives about the same results from 18-25C

thanks!

 

[Photo Engineer]

Looks good. Much better than expected. Since the results are so good, what are you asking for from such an off kilter process?

PE

 

[K2adie]

Looks good. Much better than expected. Since the results are so good, what are you asking for from such an off kilter process?

PE

Oh thanks for your interest PE, you have tough me so much in the past
Well, I need some ideas to make the final positive about 2 stops darker and as I said before I dont have that much film... So I was looking for people (partners) who can give it a try too, so we have a usable formula for this process. thats about it

 

[ME Super]

Looks pretty good. I'm not surprised that you got positive images - you basically used Rodinal as your "first developer" instead of a standard E-6 first developer, then you ran it through C-41 chemistry which developed the color.

Contrast of slide film is higher than negative film - you shoot for the highlights and let the shadows fall where they may instead of exposing for the shadows like for negative film. That may be why you feel your highlights are blown. Also, slide film gets darker with less exposure, which is the exact opposite of negative film. So if you want it 2 stops darker, give it 2 stops less exposure, but be prepared to lose shadow detail in the process (remember that high contrast!)

Overall, your slides look pretty good. One other caveat: The couplers for E-6 are designed for CD-3; the C-41 process uses CD-4, so your dyes may be less stable. But then doing "standard" cross processing slide film in C-41 has the exact same problem. so this may not matter to you.

Good luck, these results look pretty good.

 

[K2adie]

Looks pretty good. I'm not surprised that you got positive images - you basically used Rodinal as your "first developer" instead of a standard E-6 first developer, then you ran it through C-41 chemistry which developed the color.

Contrast of slide film is higher than negative film - you shoot for the highlights and let the shadows fall where they may instead of exposing for the shadows like for negative film. That may be why you feel your highlights are blown. Also, slide film gets darker with less exposure, which is the exact opposite of negative film. So if you want it 2 stops darker, give it 2 stops less exposure, but be prepared to lose shadow detail in the process (remember that high contrast!)

Overall, your slides look pretty good. One other caveat: The couplers for E-6 are designed for CD-3; the C-41 process uses CD-4, so your dyes may be less stable. But then doing "standard" cross processing slide film in C-41 has the exact same problem. so this may not matter to you.

Good luck, these results look pretty good.

Oh! as I said im not experienced in darkroom so info like this what I'm looking for! Thank you!
Get ready for a stupid question, I dont remember my c41 formula at top of my head but, lets say my formula u ses 10 grams of CD-4, can I just replace that CD amount with CD-3?
Do they reach in the same way? Or, do i have to recalculate the mollar masses and study more film chemistry? Anyone ever tried this approach?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ok, in this process of yours, the C41 developer is not the problem. It is the first developer. You need some silver halide solvent in the Rodinal to cause more development. This could be Potassium Thiocyanate or Hypo itself, or lots of Sulfite. Then the development time would change. As you say though, you have little film. So, the only easy answer is to increase time by a bit. How much is a guess.

As for using CD3, I would not advise that as you then would need other changes.

 

[K2adie]

Ok, in this process of yours, the C41 developer is not the problem. It is the first developer. You need some silver halide solvent in the Rodinal to cause more development. This could be Potassium Thiocyanate or Hypo itself, or lots of Sulfite. Then the development time would change. As you say though, you have little film. So, the only easy answer is to increase time by a bit. How much is a guess.

As for using CD3, I would not advise that as you then would need other changes.

Thanks PE,
so my easiest solution would be increasing the rodinal time or the amount I use maybe? If I get your right, what I need to do is technically push the film using rodinal (by time, amount of liquid or maybe even temp) and then fog it, c41 process and better results I believe.

thank you, I have learned some tips.
--
For other folks reading this, please try it too, share your temp, time and results. Many of you have better equipment and experience than I do
1) take photos of the first BW negative
2) take photos of the positive
3) add scans
We can improve this

 

[Photo Engineer]

Push the FD to increase speed and lower contrast. This also will give whiter whites.

PE

 

[Athiril]

If you're mixing all your own stuff you could just mix your own first dev that's closer to a normal first dev. Watkin's Chromebrew first dev will give better results than Rodinal imho.

If I was using Rodinal for this I would use 1:25 and 1g/L of potassium thiocyanate as a starting point. May want to use a high temp for that as well to get it closer again to a normal first dev.


If you want darker slides, then a reduction in first development is needed. Adding potassium bromide or benzotriazole would also work for that and may be the preferred method if you're getting base fog as well.

 

[K2adie]

If you're mixing all your own stuff you could just mix your own first dev that's closer to a normal first dev. Watkin's Chromebrew first dev will give better results than Rodinal imho.

If I was using Rodinal for this I would use 1:25 and 1g/L of potassium thiocyanate as a starting point. May want to use a high temp for that as well to get it closer again to a normal first dev.


If you want darker slides, then a reduction in first development is needed. Adding potassium bromide or benzotriazole would also work for that and may be the preferred method if you're getting base fog as well.

Noted, thanks!
Actually I didnt get base fog that much, only one of the negatives had a fog in the center and I dont know if that me, expired film issue or what. Not sure.
You mentioned 1:25 + potassium thioc. do you have any recommendation for dev time? Because I have never done 1:25 and you say I should reduce my orginal dev time. If I change rodinal to 1:25 and add potassium thi. I'm not sure what to do. Because I don't really know what does potassium thi. does. For example I know potassium bromide is good for fog but never used potassium thi all alone.
and again, im not experienced
thank you

 

[Photo Engineer]

I said before that this is going to be trial and error if you use non-standard processes.

PE

 

[Athiril]

Not sure on a starting point for you, but if I was doing it, I'd be testing it on some 35mm and cutting into small strips for tests, I'd keep the time and temp similar to normal E-6 process for first dev and tweak the results by altering the first dev formulation or dilution etc.

Potassium Thiocyanate is a solvent for the silver halide, it'll clear the highlights and give fine grain, and speed up development.

Watkin's formula is here: http://www.opie.net/orphy/photo/dr/wkft-e6.html

It's not the same as commercial E-6, but it's pretty good. Though yours will be limited by using C-41 as a colour developer, my experience was slides a little more muted in colour.

There's a clearance sale on atm on some Tetenal kits
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/102034-Tetenal-Colortec-E-6-Kit-5-Liter

 

[K2adie]

Not sure on a starting point for you, but if I was doing it, I'd be testing it on some 35mm and cutting into small strips for tests, I'd keep the time and temp similar to normal E-6 process for first dev and tweak the results by altering the first dev formulation or dilution etc.

Potassium Thiocyanate is a solvent for the silver halide, it'll clear the highlights and give fine grain, and speed up development.

Watkin's formula is here: http://www.opie.net/orphy/photo/dr/wkft-e6.html

It's not the same as commercial E-6, but it's pretty good. Though yours will be limited by using C-41 as a colour developer, my experience was slides a little more muted in colour.

There's a clearance sale on atm on some Tetenal kits
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/102034-Tetenal-Colortec-E-6-Kit-5-Liter

-
Thank you for tips one more time, I'm noting everything you guys are saying.
If my memory is right, I saw a post about this e6 formula and photo engineer was saying it is wrong. I might be wrong, that was like 2 years ago?
-
I dont like to buy bottled chemistry, it is just me, I believe every photographer should have get different results because I believe it is art. If we just duplicate stuff over and over, I dont see the point. Just my opinion, I still like and love works done with kodak, fuji etc chemicals. Just a preference. 100 dollars for couple bottles of stuff doesn't make much sense to me. I can get Fuji's set for little higher than that and replenish it over and over again. I personally dont like Tetenal kits, I find them too focused on money making... Again, just my opinion
I also found this stuff recently, not sure what it does to be honest. I wonder if this thing has anything I can use, like the bleach and first developer, re-developer etc.

 

[richyd]

There is a long discussion about this on Flickr 'I shoot Film' https://www.flickr.com/groups/ishootfilm/discuss/72157640473775716/ , with various examples of first developer then either processing in C41 or a modified version or ECN2. I think you'll find lots of examples and useful links and recipes.

 

[Mogsby]

Ok, in this process of yours, the C41 developer is not the problem. It is the first developer. You need some silver halide solvent in the Rodinal to cause more development. This could be Potassium Thiocyanate or Hypo itself, or lots of Sulfite. Then the development time would change. As you say though, you have little film. So, the only easy answer is to increase time by a bit. How much is a guess.S

As for using CD3, I would not advise that as you then would need other changes.

Hi PE,
I have been using ecn2 chemicals for this process, first developer...rodinal. The colours are very good, the problem is the film is really dark, needs the Cree led torch to see the images.
I have tried power exposing the film and also extending developer time, all at 38c. The attached precisa so far has given the best result, yet still very dark.
As I understand it slide film has no mask and should be white translucent in the film leader area. Mine are a range if colours. A deep Blue on the Boots slide film, the Kodak elite chrome has a dark brownish leader. The agfa slide has a dark grey mask!!!.
I have not tried c41 as yet, I have a large amount of ecn2, as I say the colours are pretty spot on, just the darkness of the film to deal with... Any ideas?.
Could the problem be in using rodinal as a first developer ?.
Would Derek Watkins first developer help with the issue?. If I can get/afford the ingrediants.
Any pointers/comments are more than welcome, would really help me.
I could spend a load of money on an E6 kit, but I read the reviews and some people completely rubbish the kit.

 

[flavio81]

-
Thank you for tips one more time, I'm noting everything you guys are saying.
If my memory is right, I saw a post about this e6 formula and photo engineer was saying it is wrong. I might be wrong, that was like 2 years ago?
-
I dont like to buy bottled chemistry, it is just me, I believe every photographer should have get different results because I believe it is art. If we just duplicate stuff over and over, I dont see the point. Just my opinion, I still like and love works done with kodak, fuji etc chemicals. Just a preference. 100 dollars for couple bottles of stuff doesn't make much sense to me. I can get Fuji's set for little higher than that and replenish it over and over again. I personally dont like Tetenal kits, I find them too focused on money making... Again, just my opinion
I also found this stuff recently, not sure what it does to be honest. I wonder if this thing has anything I can use, like the bleach and first developer, re-developer etc.

That kit is for doing B/W reversal process, where you develop a regular B/W film (Like Tmax 100 or FP4) as a positive instead of a negative.

Basically what it contains is a strong first and second developer (can be the same developer, and can be a strong developer like Dektol), a typical stop bath, and the key to all this process: The bleach.

The bleach, which I think is quite unlike the "bleach" used in COLOR process, "destroys" all the metallic (developer) silver, leaving the unexposed silver halides intact.

You can prepare your own bleach if you can get (potassium dichromate OR potassium permanganate) AND (sulphuric acid).

There are many threads on B/W reversal here in APUG. Also there are long, fiery debates about which one you should use: dichromate or permanganate. Both work. There are also other formulas there.

But i think the "blix" or "bleach-fix" used in color process is different, if i recall correctly the blix 'destroys' all the silver, leaving only the color dyes.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I repeat, a color film developed to a positive, and which is too dark is not developed properly in the first developer. The color development stage must go to completion so the real template for the image is formed in the first developer.

If your slides are too dark, and the bleach and fix are good, then the first developer is the bad step. You must fix it by increased time and/or adding a silver halide solvent.

PE

 

[Rudeofus]

@Mogsby: E6 FD is a specially crafted developer: it is a very powerful B&W developer which would fully develop B&W film in less than one minute, and it creates very controlled amounts of fog which nicely clears up the highlights of reversed images while keeping Dmax in good shape.

Assuming that your first developer yields a more or less straight curve, you need to look at Dmin and Dmax:

• If Dmax is excellent but Dmin is too high, then you need higher contrast. Extend FD development, in your case this would mean: use more Rodinal.
• If Dmax is too low and Dmin too high, then you need to increase contrast while reducing fog. This is an unlikely scenario with Rodinal as FD, but if it happens: add restrainer and extend FD development.
• If Dmax is too low but Dmin is ok, you need to reduce fog, i.e. add restrainer to your FD.

With this procedure you should be able to dial in brightness and contrast pretty quickly.

 

[georgegrosu]

When I made a E6 reversible color process, the tests I make I have problems with peak white level.
Dmin was big.
It was not pure white.
I did not want to increase image contrast and for this we used a prebath before black and white developer.
After prebath I wash the film and then go in black and white developer.
Prebath was a solution of 20 g/l of sodium carbonate.
In connection with ECN 2 and I make compared tests with color developer and there was not a big difference
between my color developer and ECN 2 developer.

George

 

[iandvaag]

There are all manner of developers which might be more suitable and require less tinkering. Developers like D8, D11, D19, D67, D88, D168, ID36. (there was a url link here which no longer exists) for comparison. If you want something off-the-shelf, Kodak Dektol might provide a better starting point than Rodinal.

In addition to what Rudi said above, I would say that if Dmin is too high and Dmax is very good, adding a silver halide solvent like thiosulphate or thiocyanate to the first developer will preferentially clear the highlights (help bring Dmin down in the positive without affecting Dmax too much). If you add too much silver halide solvent however, you will get low contrast muddy slides with weak Dmax.

 

[Photo Engineer]

And, the E6 color developer has a lot of silver halide solvent to promote physical development and thus contrast and dmax. If you developed color negatives in E6 CD it would fog them badly.

PE

 

[georgegrosu]

The minimum density that can be obtained in a reversible process color is given by the type of film used.
About 35 years ago a colleague came to me for process a film that told me it ORWO reversible color.
I had a ORWO UT 18 and we got together in the dark in dose.
In the end I was surprised when my film look good and the other looks like an interpositiv color film (orange mask).
After some time, I realized that the film was a negative color Orwo NC 3.

George

 

[Mogsby]

I was getting somewhere with this, also making notes of the different methods and First developer. My Praktika BCA jammed yesterday . I have another body coming from Ebay. I have limited slide film so have to shoot 8 frames, open camera in dark and cut off the frames for development. ( Boots the Chemist film is the worst of the slide films I have used for this process, so I try to stick to it) My last try was using a positive B&W developer for 1st dev, then fog and another soak far half the time in a weaker B&W pos dev before the colour dev in C41. The result was OK, the film came out translucent, but the images are very faint. Also I'm not sure of the C41 I used it is a few months old. When I get a new camera I will redo the test with fresh chemicals. I do not have a film scanner so it is difficult for me to properly show you the results.
I take on board all of the comments here and will count them into my next tests. I am working on getting the finished film translucent, your ideas/comment will no doubt help.
Cheers

 

[Rudeofus]

In my experience E6 film is a kind of film which requires incredibly strong developers. See my previous comment about E6 FD, and E6 CD is quite different to C-41 CD as well:

• C-41 CD works at around pH 10, whereas E6 CD works at pH 12
• E6 CD contains a solvent which also speeds up development.
• E-6 CD contains about 10 g/l color developer compared to about 5 g/l for C-41 CD

Even if CD-3 is a weaker development agent than CD-4, E6 CD is much stronger than C-41 CD, and you need to boost C-41 CD a lot to get the activity expected from an E-6 CD. If you have no pH meter to do fine adjustments, you could add 5-10 g/l Trisodium Phosphate to C-41 CD and, if possible, a 0.5-2 g/l KSCN. Note that the E6 CD step runs to completion, i.e. all the remaining silver halide must be developed ---> there is no such thing as a fog problem with E6 CD.

About your experimental setup: E6 film is expensive, so use as few frames as possible in your tests. Take a whole roll of film, make consecutive series of exposures (as metered, +2 stops, -2 stops) of some area with large gray patches. When you wind back the film, leave the leader of the film stick out a bit. You know from previous films how long the leader is, and you know how long a strip with three frames is. This allows you to make ten to twelve test runs per 36 frame roll. Modify your film spindle such that the test clip stays within the outer grove. Use rotary development, together with the previous trick you can cut down process liquid requirement to 80 ml per process run. Tape some foam to the outside of your film tank, this allows you to use rotary development without a rotary processor. Since you only use 80ml of process liquid, it doesn't matter if you have an inversion tank lid.

 

[georgegrosu]

Rudeofus,
Thanks for the advice.
The problem with color development in the E6 process is make to the end, I do not know.
To understand the problem with the tests say.
15 years ago, I got a lot of free films expired.
Most films (85%) were medium format color slides.
The tests we have started on Provia 400 and Velvia 50 medium format.
The camera was a Lubitel 2.
I made hundreds of samples pulled gusset exposure and processed differently.
When we arrived at some pretty good results I bought a Kiev 60.
The best tests I showed them to a friend who has a photo center for analog film.
In Romania is about the only photographer who made classic photo.
After seeing tests tells me that it is better to do a test with fresh films.
I took from him E100GX Kodak - two films and he exposed for me with his camera.
The films exposed to gusset exposure, normal and ± 1 amperture.
He developed an film in original set Tetenel E6.
Me, I cut the end of film one piece for my experiment on the my E6 process .
My process compatible E6 does not go the same with any color slide film.
I presented the discussion here, post 20
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Images here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/21121448@N06/30599998764/
My process compatible E6 have a loss of sensitivity to the standard process.
Increasing time in black and white developer can solve this problem.
This is the story of my tests.
Sorry for my English.

George