The ISO Film Speed Diagram is used to determine film speed and not exposure placement. It is a graphical method of the Delta-X Criterion. Fractional Gradient speed point is derived by psychophysical testing and produces the most consistently accurate B&W film speed. When the ISO diagram's parameters are adhere to, the difference between 0.10 over Fb+f is always Δ0.296 log-H from the fractional gradient speed point.
Any point of density is not an adequate way to determine consistent print quality.
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If you are interested in better understanding film speed, I suggest checking out these two papers. This forum has a number of ways you can obtain them.
Nelson, C.N., Safety Factors in Camera Exposures, Photographic Science and Engineering, Vol 4, No 1, Jan-Feb 1960.
Nelson, C.N. and Simonds, J.L., Simple Methods for Approximating the Fractional Gradient Speeds of Photographic Materials, JOSA, Vol, 46, No. 5, May 1956.
Bill, what is clear is that today the ZS table is inconsistent with box speeds... in nominal terms. (if we use a personal speed then we simply do what we want)
Z-I was stated (by Ansel Adams himself) to have 0.1D (over FB), if we use Box Speed and we meter for Z-V (stated to be a 18% grey card) then our Z-I won't be at 0.1D as it will be pure black, a -4 underexposure is lower than the the Speed Point exposure by a fair amount, you in particular are proficient in film calibration, so no need to insist in that...
Even if metering/exposing very accurately, even if performing a lab grade ISO calibration... we won't get the Z-I detail if we use the perfectly calibrated ISO speed for ZS, we have to shift a zone or to use half the EI!
IMO that speed change generated an incredible amount of confusion for the ZS, as ZS table was not changed we have 3 choices:
1> Using (Nominally) half of the Box Speed.
2> Exposure compensation +1
3> Shifting a zone, so expecting start having detail in Z-2 instead Z-1 which will be pure black.
Nominally:
With 1 and 2 we expose like Pre 1960, we overexpose the neutral 18% grey by +1 (in modern terms) and we have 4.33 stops shadow latitude.
With 3 we have 3.3 stops shadow latitude, and our 18% mid gray is exposed 0+/-. Our Z-1 is in the speed point so staring to have detail.
The question is: Do we aim a 3.33 or a 4.33 shadow latitude ?
I haven't read every word in this thread, but it's the internet, so somebody has probably gotten something wrong.![]()
@ChristopherCoy I just pick little bits here and there.
For example hold time... I knew there was a hold time but hadn’t seen how many minutes or hours it’s supposed to be.
Why?I'm really sorry I ever asked this question... or even began to think about the ZS.
I doubt latent image keeping has anything to do with test problems, ZS etc.
The issue I have with the Zone System is that other than it perhaps being a visualization tool of some use, it adds no real value from the perspective of print quality,
I'm really sorry I ever asked this question... or even began to think about the ZS.
Michael,Hi Stephen,
Indeed, true speed conspiracies persist. I just meant given all the slop (including poor dip/dunk uniformitybut that's another story...), LIK is probably a relatively minor consideration. On the other hand you are of course correct in pointing out all the potential variables.
Michael
I wonder Stephen. If TMAX-100 has an effective speed of 64, (assuming a typical hold time for my film) why wouldn’t I just shoot it at 64?
Or was that just the 0.10 speed? Maybe Delta-X speed remains 100?
I haven't read every word in this thread, but it's the internet, so somebody has probably gotten something wrong.
I suggest taking a look at this workbook for anybody who wants to get into some of the science and measurement behind the zone system.
https://www.kodak.com/content/products-brochures/Film/Basic-Photographic-Sensitometry-Workbook.pdf
I don't think I've seen it mentioned here, but then again, I could be wrong.![]()
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