Current experience with X-ray scanners - May 2022

koraks

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pentaxuser said:
case it wasn't clear in my post its prime purpose was to seek confirmation or otherwise that Edinburgh and Berlin use the new CT scanners
Click to expand...

Why not ask the guy whose film went through them? The new scanners are pretty easy to recognize. See e.g. the video posted earlier today in this thread. The CT sanners have a distinct donut shape as opposed the square box shape of the x-ray scanners.

Not sure what all the drama is about you keep going on about. You seem to be missing the point that an n=1 is of little value under the circumstances you described. But whatever.
 

pentaxuser

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koraks said:
Why not ask the guy whose film went through them? The new scanners are pretty easy to recognize. See e.g. the video posted earlier today in this thread. The CT sanners have a distinct donut shape as opposed the square box shape of the x-ray scanners.
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I did but like VinceInMT he did not know. However I gave evidence in my first post why in the case of Edinburgh airport I found reports that the new CT scanners were trialled in 2019 and since then I had been unable to find anything which suggested they had been removed so the odds favour the scanners being the new CT ones

He is travelling into Europe again in the next few weeks and has said that he will inquire next time and I have given him the names of the scanners that are listed in the Ilford announcement

I am not sure that it is worth reporting whatever his next experiences will be based on the reception this has had by some so far here on Photrio.

pentaxuser
 

koraks

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It would be useful to see examples of film that had gone through CT scanners, regardless if there's damage or not.
As said before, I'm not sure about the usefulness of the story of some guy who put film through some kind of scanner with some kind of outcome. Do you recognize there's a lot of uncertainties in that story that we just can't speculate away?

As to the scanners in Edinburgh: not sure about that airport, but Schiphol/Amsterdam AFAIK has used a mix of CT and x-ray at some point; perhaps they still do. Even if CT's were present at Edinburgh at some point, there's no guarantee there aren't also x-ray machines still in use. Yes, it would be useful if someone could verify that only CT scanners are used in Edinburgh. I can't; it's been 15 years I reckon since I went through that airport.
 
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VinceInMT

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I’ve wondered if placing film in one of those old lead-lined bags would result in the luggage being opened and then the contents of that lead-lined bag being hand inspected? Perhaps that’s a strategy for forcing a hand inspection.
 

koraks

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I doubt you'll find lead-lined bags that those newer CT scanners don't "see" straight through. It'd have to be a pretty heavy bag in any case. I wouldn't want to carry one for sure.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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Had 10 rolls of Rollei IR 120 with me as I went through YVR. They told me that they are safe for films up to ISO 400, but hand inspected when I asked for it. I also had the films hand inspected twice for domestic flights within Japan, as well as final flight home. For one of the domestic flights, I had a roll of film in the camera, which went through the x-ray machine. I've made a note on the roll, and will develop it to once over jetlag, to see if there is any difference in b+f. I'm expecting none.
 

halfaman

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I was on holidays in Finland and they have CT scanners at Helsinki airport. I was aware of it so I already had my film in a ziplock bag. I had no problem for hand inspection.

CT are bigger than standard X-Ray scanners and you don't need to take anything out of the hand luggage. Liquids, electronics, everything is scanned inside the luggage. They get a full 3D scan and they can filter the view by different densities and materials. Really nice and more comfortable for the passenger.
 
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Agulliver

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I certainly know people who have tried the lead lined bags in the past, only to find that it causes a separate hand check of the bag's full contents. X-rays just cannot penetrate through the lead, so all the operator and AI "see" is a black area that cannot be identified. It just looks like you're trying to hide something from them....so they order a full check on your bag's contents. Which wastes your time and theirs. Far better to have your films in a zippy bag, ready to offer them for hand inspection if it looks like you're about to encounter a CT scanner.

As @halfaman says the difference between scanners is usually obvious. Any CT scanner for hand baggage is going to be pretty new, no more than 3-4 years old. It's going to be larger than the usual "traditional" x-ray scanners for hand baggage and may have the doughnut shape of a medical CT scanner. Also, the whole point of the CT scanners is that you're no longer required to remove laptops, tablets, cameras, liquids etc. It's going to be better for the vast majority of passengers and for the security staff. Even if your film is CT scanned, it might be fine....though there's definitely an increased chance of X-ray damage with the CT scanners.
 

Agulliver

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@koraks

I am trying to keep things simple. As a Physicist, I could probably write pages on the subject. But for our purposes, the X-rays don't penetrate the lead lined bags.
 

reddesert

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It's not binary, but X-ray absorption per mass is a relatively strong function of atomic mass, especially at higher energies; this is called the X-ray mass attenuation coefficient and there are tables online. I don't know about the opacity of lead film bags, but for obvious reasons they would have to be only absorptive enough to attenuate X-rays, yet transmissive enough to let the operator see through. Years ago, before 9/11, I put a silver tea tin through an X-ray scanner and they made me pull it out of my bag and open it up. Silver is more absorptive per mass than iron or aluminum, but less than lead.

Modern X-ray machines, AFAIK including the generation before CT scanners, use two energy bands to differentiate types of materials. The lead bag might also interfere with that, another reason they'd want to look at it.
 

FredK

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CT Scanners produce a continuous stream of energy that will accumulate into the silver grains. The older x-ray scanners may actually yield more energy in their single "blast" vs. what level of energy is being emitted by the new CT scanner stream, but the newer CT scanners harm film far more due to the accumulation of the energy from the continuous stream. I wouldn't trust any CT scanner for being safe at any negative or reversal film speed - not even any old 25 speed films. Hand inspection is the only safe way to carry film through the airports with the new scanners.
 

Agulliver

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I already know two people who have got away with having their films go through the new CT scanners, so it's not clear cut that they always ruin film. But they certainly have the capacity to do so, which the older X-ray machines for hand baggage do not,

I've noticed from my own travels and those of friends that a few airports are now including info on film in their security instructions....which shows we haven't been entirely forgotten.
 

Fatih Ayoglu

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Agulliver said:
@koraks

I am trying to keep things simple. As a Physicist, I could probably write pages on the subject. But for our purposes, the X-rays don't penetrate the lead lined bags.
Click to expand...
That is not entirely true. It depends on the amount of XRay vs the thickness of the lead. I have tested a single lead bag and double leaf bag (one in another) and XRay machines can see both, the security has confirmed they can see inside, slightly less clear in each but not entirely dark black box.
 

Fatih Ayoglu

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Also when I travel and the security insists to put the film through the scanner (which happens in UK and Spain always, in Milan I get hand inspection for films and cameras, so in Amsterdam, Dubai, Bangkok and US so far) I also take note of the time, the counter, the staff so I can raise a complaint. AFAIK there is no government rule which states everything must go through XRay and colour films have advisory on them so when the security staff push them through the scanner, it is only because they are lazy, not due to any security risk. If TSA can check films and cameras by hand, that means it is perfectly safe to do so
 

wiltw

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Photos of Security CT prove that the above statement does not always hold true. SOME brands of Security CT look very obviously 'new tech'


And some are quite large


But some are frankly not that much different looking from the traditional Security X-Ray machines

 
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Agulliver

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The new scanners are still bigger than the old ones, and look visibly new, even if the casing sometimes hides the doughnut shape. The real give-away is the fact that you won't be asked to separate your laptop or liquids from your bag for scanning.

For the 126th time, the UK Department for Transport has issued a diktat that all UK civil airports permit hand inspection of photographic film. I've attached my copy to messages here multiple times so it must be searchable.

Other countries will vary as to their willingness to hand inspect film or other items. You may also find an unwillingness if the older regular X-ray scanners are in use because for all practical purposes they don't damage film.

If a lead lined bag permits the equipment to "see" it's contents....then it's not achieving it's stated purpose!
 

Fatih Ayoglu

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Agulliver said:
If a lead lined bag permits the equipment to "see" it's contents....then it's not achieving it's stated purpose!
Click to expand...

For the 2nd time, it depends the intensity of Xray and the thickness of the lead, it is not something binary. You are a physicist, you know this
 

koraks

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@Agulliver, if it was such a clear-cut case, how would you explain this:
kodak.com/global/en/service/tib/tib5201.shtml

A fairytale?

Are you aware of the wavelengths and intensities of all hand luggage inspection machines (xray + CT) out there? As well as the thickness and distribution of lead liners in the lead bags sold and used across the world, as well as the film carried in it (particularly its speed) and the xray dose threshold at which it starts to fog problematically?

In my mind, only with those parameters being firmly established it's possible to state whether lead-lined bags are effective or not. Given that common lore on the web has been for about 2 decades that the effectiveness of lead-lined bags is uncertain, I think it would be exceptionally useful if you were to be inclined to write the couple of pages about it to prove that it isn't so, and that lead-lined bags are in fact 100% effective. Heck, you might even manage to get a compensation for your efforts from a brand like Domke as your theoretical proof would have commercial relevance for them.

Why the exasperated eye-rolling if apparently it's something you can easily guesstimate with sufficient accuracy based on a paper napkin calculation? If that's the case, why not make us privy to that guesstimate so we can all learn from it?
 

BrianShaw

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@koraks. That Kodak TIB dates to 2003, which is about a decade after I retired my lead film bag. The physics and engineering can be debated till the cows come home, as it probably will be, but the experience that I had is that lead bag 100% guaranteed that TSA would pull the carry-on bag aside for secondary inspection. Sometimes the film would be hand inspected and sometimes they’d dump the film and empty lead bag in a bin and push them through the X-ray machine. Either way, and no matter if they saw black or gray or grey on their monitor… the X-ray bag was not a very good PRACTICAL preventative solution.
 

koraks

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Well, I ran into a rare case of visible x-ray fogging despite the roll not having gone through a CT scanner - just two (2) old-fashioned x-ray scanners:

More details here: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/dont-look-down-getting-your-film-x-rayed-when-flying/

The TL;DR is that the defect isn't so far visible on scans. I haven't optically printed anything from this roll, yet, but I doubt it'll show up on prints. But I do hesitate to bring film on our next trip if it involves any airports or x-ray scanners (e.g. some international trains, and major museums). I think I'm going to stick to digital in those instances.
 

Daniela

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Eek! I go through Pisa a lot and haven't encountered any problems in the past year and a half. I now have 5 rolls waiting to be developed, so I'll see if anything has changed. Thanks for sharing about the possible patterns!
 
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