Colour Negative / Slide and the Zone System

I am confused - with upwards of 15 stops of available latitude on certain colour negative films, 5stops on slide and 10 stops on black and white - where to the midtown's sit? How does the Zone System help when evaluating the position of tones in colour negative and slide?

If you don't have certain tones in your images then the position of shadows / midtones and highlights are vital - there doesn't seem to be any information on this distribution of light across the film, just its extreme ends.

1. For colour negatives like Portra (or example), the usable range is around -3 (black) to +12 (white). Everyone says expose the shadows for -2 (not blacks) and everything should fall into place, so are we saying put the mid tones at 0? This gives another 12 stops of lights highlights in this case? Is that correct to put the midtone value so close to the shadows?

2. Black and white seems to have a more even distribution, -4 to +4, which seems to be nine stops rather than the 10 the zone system uses. I am seeing midtones at 0 and whites at +4...

3. Subsequently with slide film, -3 to +2, are we told to position the highlights on 1.5stops, so are the midtones are at 0 once again?

Image below is (C) Onlandscape

A link to your graph would be helpful to see the context.
You are confusing two different things, latitude is not dynamic range and vice versa.
Latitude is the "room" you have on the recording medium for the light range you are trying to record.
So if your recoding medium has a dynamic range of 10 stops and your scene has 8 you have two stops "spare" called latitude which allows you to move your exposure up or down the 10 stops available (one up or down) and still fully record the scene. If you have the same 10 stops available and your scene has 12 you have no latitude and will need to decide what to loose highlight or shadow detail.

The dynamic range is not a hard stop in film, the response to light in the highlights rolls off, the characteristic being down to the film and developer chosen, in digital the stop is, at the top, hard, it saturates and that is that, at the bottom it becomes noise limited and is soft depending on your tolerance of noise and the RAW converter and post processing you use.
The "hard" lines in that graph are too simplistic IMHO.

So, in your graph digital has a 12 stop dynamic range and in the typical scene of 7 stops shown has 5 stops latitude you would, on digital theory, choose to expose to the right to maximise your data without hitting the hard stop and let the shadows fall as far to the right as possible to minimise noise.
The colour negative has 15 stops dynamic range so has 8 stops of latitude for that scene and where to place the scene is a choice, usually the advice is as you suggest is to be generous in the shadows as your highlights will take advantage of the latitude and be recorded or as you say "fall into place". You seem overly concerned IMHO with where the mid-tone falls it's the highlights and shadows you should worry about in both film and digital and let the mid-tones "fall in place".

You mention the Zone System and where it helps, it doesn't really!!
The Zone system was designed to place the scene on the straight part of the curve (for maximum quality and ease of printing with light and not scanning which I know you didn't mention but requires for optimum results a different, slightly, approach to exposure placement than traditional printing)) and does not venture to use the highlight roll off available, which was very different than in modern films which have a curve with a much longer and straighter central section. The N+1 etc of the Zone system, which was intended for individual exposures on sheet film and only translated to roll film because it was good idea in thinking about how the film was exposed and fitted to the film curve, was used to manipulate the curve which today for most scenes and modern films is mostly not necessary.

BTW
You should worry more about how you display/show your work after you have captured even those 7 stops, look up the dynamic range of photographic paper, ink jet printers and display screens.

Chris Livsey said:

The colour negative has 15 stops dynamic range so has 8 stops of latitude for that scene and where to place the scene is a choice, usually the advice is as you suggest is to be generous in the shadows as your highlights will take advantage of the latitude and be recorded or as you say "fall into place". You seem overly concerned IMHO with where the mid-tone falls it's the highlights and shadows you should worry about in both film and digital and let the mid-tones "fall in place".

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Thank you so much for taking the time to make a detailed reply... Its why I come to APUG every time...

Yes I am shooting film to scan it...

So what you are saying is meter the shadows and highlights and work out the difference between them, then position them on the scale accordingly, rather than worrying about the position of the mid tones?

I always get confused when the composition does not contain obvious shadows or highlights etc. If you went to shoot green grass for example, filling the frame, then I have no idea what value I would position that....

I have recently been using a new (to me) Sekonic 758DR meter. I spot the highlights, then the shadows and average the results. As it contains a 'midtones' button, I can then slide the recorded values up and down the EV scale, putting my deep shadows on -3.

Using slide is the same. It allows me to position the shadows on -2, and then look at how much above 1 and 3/4 stops the highlights are, so I can grad them accordingly.

DavidClapp said:

So what you are saying is meter the shadows and highlights and work out the difference between them, then position them on the scale accordingly, rather than worrying about the position of the mid tones?

I always get confused when the composition does not contain obvious shadows or highlights etc. If you went to shoot green grass for example, filling the frame, then I have no idea what value I would position that....

Click to expand...

No I don't advocate "working out the difference" I advocate metering the highlights in digital to expose to protect them (unless I'm prepared to sacrifice them for some reason eg lots of specular stuff and taking care with colour channels which is another digital can of worms which is an E6 approach as well) and metering for shadows in film (negative). As I said, the highlights in negative film will take care of themselves and the mid-tones will do the same.
Posh meters I know, been there done that, just because it can do it doesn't mean you should do it.
So your problem is the green grass filling the frame? That is a scene with a very low dynamic range so you are free, almost, to place it where you want ie you have lots of latitude !! Having moved away from spot meters personally I would use my incident meter and create an artificial shadow with my hand shading the meter and call that my shadow exposure job done. Why not test it out? Take a green field and look at the dynamic range with your spot meter then expose over say an 8 stop range around your mid-tone position ( having worked out the difference) I suspect you will find the shadows will start to loose details on the underexposed ( and if C41 colour the colours will be "off" C41 stock hates underexpose and to overexpose you almost need to take the film out into the sun) but you will have lots of "overexposure" room, if you scan at least 5 frames will be virtually indistinguishable when the scan and software has finished and you will see quite a gradual progression of density on the negative strip. You are over-worrying IMHO.

I'm not dogmatic about what works for somebody else, I'm not prescriptive about what works for me, if you want to take spot readings all over the place and work out what to do, and it works, fine, it's just, for me, an incident meter is "better" if I want to confirm what I think is right, I tend to sunny sixteen as a shooting stress remover, over time I have become more concerned with content rather than extracting the last drop of quality, many will not like that approach and get great pleasure out of making the process as difficult/fun for them as possible, that's fine, my Minolta spotmeter is in the drawer, at the back, but you use the tools you are comfortable with but it sounds at the moment you aren't comfortable and that is not good for producing results I would advocate making use of the tolerance built into the process and if all else fails bracket

Perhaps this is getting a bit overly complicated.

The Zone system lets you predict how various subject intensities will be rendered on film.

You have the option of placing any ONE intensity at any ONE point on the exposure curve.
All other intensities will fall where they may. You have enough information to predict that.

The overall contrast range of the negative may be changed a bit by adjusting development, but not by much.

But the fundamental control is the exposure of the negative.
When you set that, you cast the negative rendering in concrete.

If you want to learn proper exposure, shoot slides.
That eliminates one major variable in the final rendering.
Slides also have the narrowest tolerance to achieve "correct" exposure.

Once you can get consistently good slides, you can achieve the same level of success with other films.

- Leigh

Leigh B said:

Perhaps this is getting a bit overly complicated.

Once you can get consistently good slides, you can achieve the same level of success with other films.

- Leigh

Click to expand...

I agree, hence my sunny sixteen and shaded incident meter, say it quietly but shooting digital in manual is a quick way of learning exposure.
It started rather complicated sorting out dynamic range from latitude and I apologise for that.

I agree with your __unprintable__ suggestion.

Instantaneous feedback can be a great learning tool, with the results applicable to real photography.

- Leigh

The Sekonic L-758DR has a feature that you can use that 'acts' like the Zone System... the clipping points.

When you take any one meter reading in the shutter speed mode, you can see the displayed f/stop reading on the main screen... but on the graph below you can see the clipping points which show where your exposure would fall if you were to elect one of the f/stops displayed on the graph.

I use this by reading a highlight or shadow and tentatively decide an f/stop that I will keep in mind. For example I might place the reading near the shadow or highlight clipping point. Then I read different parts of the scene and check if the f/stop I have in mind will "work" for that reading.

If everything checks out I will use that f/stop...

DavidClapp said:

with upwards of 15 stops of available latitude on certain colour negative films

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Source?

Probably the easiest to read is the Kodak Vision3 which plots the curve in stops, you will note that at +8 stops the shoulder is just becoming discernible:

http://motion.kodak.com/KodakGCG/uploadedfiles/motion/TI2647.pdf

Page 4

Bill Burk said:

The Sekonic L-758DR has a feature that you can use that 'acts' like the Zone System... the clipping points.

When you take any one meter reading in the shutter speed mode, you can see the displayed f/stop reading on the main screen... but on the graph below you can see the clipping points which show where your exposure would fall if you were to elect one of the f/stops displayed on the graph.

Click to expand...

So how do you decide the clipping points to set?

Please note that to capture a scene on a reversal film, the shoulder and toe are compressed (non-linear), but in negative film, this is not true. The entire image can be captured on the straight line portion of the film. The non-linearity comes in during printing.

However, when you print a negative film, you have the choice of which portion of that straight line to use, and you can dodge or burn. So, you get considerably more latitude and quality from negative color films.

PE

As far as practical colour photography is concerned David I would forget about the Zone System, you are only going to tie yourself in unnecessary knots.

DavidClapp said:

I have recently been using a new (to me) Sekonic 758DR meter. I spot the highlights, then the shadows and average the results. As it contains a 'midtones' button, I can then slide the recorded values up and down the EV scale, putting my deep shadows on -3.

Click to expand...

Huh!? 15 steps on Portra?? Are you sure about that? That is very, very, very generous...
Really, who actually applies Zone System methodology to colour film? LF film? Much less roll film?? I think we gave up on that caper when Nelson lost his outboard.

I'm wondering about your metering.
Following what you explained, yes, spotting requires measuring a bright toned, but not the brightest (highlight) part of a scene. Conversely for shadows, measuring a dark, but not a totally dark (deep shadow) area of scene, recording that in memory and averaging all at the end. The midtone can either by pointed out by you (e.g. with a grey card, which is common), or let the meter set it by setting either the first or last reading as a midtone value (speaking in terms of the L758D and variants). How the L758D sets midtone is set out in custom functions, and leaving it to the meter works fine much of the time. You must be very careful about arbitrarily shifting the values up or down on slide film; in my personal use, I rarely make any "sliding rule" adjustments to an averaged reading using Velvia 50/Provia 100. How much you shift highlight and shadow values against a midtone reference will depend on your knowledge of how the scene will appear in the end e.g. web or printed form (typically a scene must be given slight overexposure for most printing as some brightness is lost in the print step).

You can cover a lot of exposure latitude with color neg.

Chris Livsey said:

So how do you decide the clipping points to set?

Click to expand...

There is a procedure to test and set these points.

But I circumvented that test by adopting the Zone System.

I take it as if by definition, that the Zone System clipping points are Zones I and II in the shadows... and Zones VIII and IX in the highlights.

So I set the clipping points on the corresponding whole stops from the metered point.

If you are interested in actually doing the tests and setting the points where they should be for the film of your choice... I could probably help you find resources for that.

Reading the differences of opinion and expressed knowledge here, it shows why myself and others get so utterly confused. Everyone approaches the scene, meters and exposes differently, with different meters, different techniques, that apply to different photography styles, compositions...

I really want to find a simple guide that explains the best way of metering for popular films, so the colours look good, lighting looks good - Portra / Pro400H, Ektar, Velvia 50, HP5, Tri-X and many other films with visual examples...

There is far too many variables with film and I often get despondent...

Poisson Du Jour said:

Huh!? 15 steps on Portra?? Are you sure about that? That is very, very, very generous...

Click to expand...

YOu can see where I got that from - my initial post JPEG

The best way to learn how to shoot these films is by doing and develop your own techniques.

DavidClapp said:

Reading the differences of opinion and expressed knowledge here, it shows why myself and others get so utterly confused. Everyone approaches the scene, meters and exposes differently, with different meters, different techniques, that apply to different photography styles, compositions...

I really want to find a simple guide that explains the best way of metering for popular films, so the colours look good, lighting looks good - Portra / Pro400H, Ektar, Velvia 50, HP5, Tri-X and many other films with visual examples...

There is far too many variables with film and I often get despondent...

Click to expand...

With the exception of Velvia (transparency film), and in almost all situations, it is pretty simple:

Either:
1) set the box speed (ISO) on your reflected light meter, point it at your scene and take a reading, use the exposure recommended for one shot, and take one further shot with one further stop of more exposure. Then let the tones sort themselves out when the negative is printed; or
2) set the box speed (ISO) on your incident light meter, put the meter into the same light as the light that hits your subject, point the meter at your camera and take a reading, use the exposure recommended for one shot, and take one further shot with one further stop of more exposure. Then let the tones sort themselves out when the negative is printed.

For some of the negative films (like T-Max 400) you can get away with a lot of unnecessary extra exposure, and still get great results. For others, you need to get a bit closer, but there usually is a fair bit of wiggle room.

In a few rare cases, the scene itself has such a wide range of brightnesses that it will exceed the capacity of the film to capture it. In some cases you can reduce development to help a bit, but mostly you just need to bracket your exposures and pick which end of the range is the most important when you print.

For Velvia or other transparency film, either:
Either:
1) set the box speed (ISO) on your reflected light meter, point it at your scene and take a reading, use the exposure recommended for one shot, and take one further shot with one-half of a stop less of exposure. As the medium is a positive one, the tones in the scene will determine the tones in the transparency; or
2) set the box speed (ISO) on your incident light meter, put the meter into the same light as the light that hits your subject, point the meter at your camera and take a reading, use the exposure recommended for one shot, and take one further shot with one-half of a stop less of exposure. As the medium is a positive one, the tones in the scene will determine the tones in the transparency.

For negatives, if the scene differs a lot from a mixture that is average, you may want to adjust the exposure to match. A light scene might need to be lightened up a further stop, and a dark scene might need to be darkened down a stop.

For transparencies, pay extra attention to lighter and highlight details. If they are too light, there is no printing stage to bring them back. Consider a further shot with a bit less exposure.

If you find you are getting consistently better results with more than the recommended exposure, adjust your practice in the future by using a lower EI than the box ISO speed. If you find you are getting consistently better results with less than the recommended exposure, adjust your practice in the future by using a higher EI than the box ISO speed.

DavidClapp said:

Everyone approaches the scene, meters and exposes differently, with different meters, different techniques, that apply to different photography styles, compositions...

Click to expand...

That's because photography is 80% science and 20% art.
But even that ratio will vary from one photographer to another.

There's some agreement on the science part (perhaps not a lot).

There's absolutely no agreement on the art part.

Everyone follows a set of procedures that results in the desired final product.

And that definition is different for every practitioner.

- Leigh

DavidClapp said:

Reading the differences of opinion and expressed knowledge here, it shows why myself and others get so utterly confused. Everyone approaches the scene, meters and exposes differently, with different meters, different techniques, that apply to different photography styles, compositions...

I really want to find a simple guide that explains the best way of metering for popular films, so the colours look good, lighting looks good - Portra / Pro400H, Ektar, Velvia 50, HP5, Tri-X and many other films with visual examples...

There is far too many variables with film and I often get despondent...

Click to expand...

An "average" scene has about 7 2/3 stops subject luminance range. About 5 stops in the open, and the remainder in the shade.

Black and white's geared up nicely to fit that. You can follow systems for black and white and expand and compress things quite a bit while still looking realistic.

Color negative would have similar flexibility, but in practice, it's held to a standard amount of development because that helps keep the color balanced. So expect a little less leeway with color negative.

Color reversal is a special beast, because not only do you have to fit in a shorter subject luminance range, you have to nail the exposure in the camera... you can't go back later in the printing stage and correct for minor exposure errors.

With color, either kind, you only get the pretty colors in a narrow range of exposure around the metered point, so keep the interesting parts of your subject close to center (unless of course they are light or dark colors)...

How's that for a simple guide?

Many photographers confuse simple exposure metering with the Zone System. Please bear in mind that, like Gaul, the Zone System is divided into three parts: exposure, development, and printing, which pretty much leaves out color negative and color transparency film, since contrast (tonal range) can't be adjusted through development without also adversely affecting color balance. In addition, it is also unsuitable for black and white roll film, except when all frames require the same contrast adjustment through development. So, unless you are shooting large format black and white, don't worry about the Zone System, and focus instead on achieving proper exposure for the type of film you shoot.

Bill Burk said:

There is a procedure to test and set these points.

If you are interested in actually doing the tests and setting the points where they should be for the film of your choice... I could probably help you find resources for that.

Click to expand...

Thank you, I noted that test targets are available and a computer program to interpret the results obviously targeted (my bad) at cameras with a silicon based image recording system, it was of interest if that procedure had been adapted to film.
The discussions on film with this meter I find talk of a ten stop range limit on the meter that would make clipping points on the C41 colour film rather limiting.
I can see it being useful in the silicon world where the camera histogram, basically the same display as the meter, is jpeg based and subject to in camera processing and therefore is not truthful. My Minolta Spotmeter has a rather cruder way of accomplishing the same thing.