Color Printing RA-4 Yes/No? How do folks print today

[Nodda Duma]

I've never tried room temperature RA-4. I know PE processed RA-4 at room temperature in a tray, 2 minutes each for developer and blix. Would be zero investment, just a tray and a watch.

just taught a fellow how to develop RA-4 at room temp at the public darkroom I just opened here in S. NH. He was pretty happy.

3 1/2 minutes to develop Fuji Crystal Archive at room temp. I have found adding development time and/or more vigorous development slightly increases color intensity, though there’s limits to it. That tells me it takes a bit longer to develop to completion at room temp than even the 3 1/2 minutes suggested by Ron long ago.

 

[mshchem]

just taught a fellow how to develop RA-4 at room temp at the public darkroom I just opened here in S. NH. He was pretty happy.

3 1/2 minutes to develop Fuji Crystal Archive at room temp. I have found adding development time and/or more vigorous development slightly increases color intensity, though there’s limits to it. That tells me it takes a bit longer to develop to completion at room temp than even the 3 1/2 minutes suggested by Ron long ago.

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That's great! I think a lot of folks think they need a lot of expensive equipment to make color prints, this is not the case. Once a filter pack is dialed in for the film/paper combination its easy. Fuji cut sheets are easy and produce brilliant color photos

Keep us updated.

 

[sfaber17]

...
Of course buying a new Jobo is fun! Get a CPP3 and several 3005 drums, 5 prints at a shot!!

Or one could get my Merz processor (listed) and do 6 - 8x10 prints plus 2 - 11x14 prints at the same time or develop 20 or 30 4x5 films in one shot, or a 20x24 print along with a 16x20 print, etc.
all for the cost of one large jobo drum.

 

[mshchem]

Or this gem. Processes roll paper at 12 meters per minute! Sweet
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154377135543

 

[lantau]

Or this gem. Processes roll paper at 12 meters per minute! Sweet
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154377135543

That requires a 32A 400V triple phase socket. Most private homes, if they even have a triple phase outlet, will only have 16A.

 

[mshchem]

That requires a 32A 400V triple phase socket. Most private homes, if they even have a triple phase outlet, will only have 16A.

I could just tap into my personal nuclear generator

 

[mshchem]

The Blix fairy came yesterday

 

[BMbikerider]

This was the type of thread I was hoping to come across.
I am new here but have been shooting film for awhile now. Most recently got my first experience at color printing in a darkroom lab in Los Angeles & now I'm hooked.

If anyone has any advice on what's a good way to get started while I am converting my garage into a darkroom that would be greatly appreciated.

Been looking for a Fujimoto Cp-31/51 or some table-top processor that would help streamline things but I've had zero luck.

I just came across a CPA 2 online for a really reasonable price but the opinions on drum processing are so divided everywhere I read up on - so I really don't know where to start.

Is a slot processor the best way to go?

Thanks.

When I started I used a roller drum but it was such a convoluted way of getting prints made and quite time consuming cleaning out the drum beforehand and afterwards. I changed over to NOVA in 1994 and have never looked back. If I have a lot of prints to make it also speeds up the process and if there are no other problems, I can make one print every 3- 4 mins which is pretty quick considering the developing, stop bath and blix times but not including the washing stages. The clearing up times after a session are also minimal, just wiping down, replenishing the dev and blix before turning everything off.

 

[Brent Waterworth]

When I started I used a roller drum but it was such a convoluted way of getting prints made and quite time consuming cleaning out the drum beforehand and afterwards. I changed over to NOVA in 1994 and have never looked back. If I have a lot of prints to make it also speeds up the process and if there are no other problems, I can make one print every 3- 4 mins which is pretty quick considering the developing, stop bath and blix times but not including the washing stages. The clearing up times after a session are also minimal, just wiping down, replenishing the dev and blix before turning everything off.

Nice, I was looking into the Nova slot processors & they seemed pretty legit.

I recently just purchased a Fujimoto CP51 after searching high & low for a CP31 but it forces me to have to put it in a separate room due to it being 220V.

Might have to consider something else that will streamline my process & works in my darkroom so I’m not having to jump through an additional hoop using it in my kitchen.

 

[mshchem]

Nice, I was looking into the Nova slot processors & they seemed pretty legit.

I recently just purchased a Fujimoto CP51 after searching high & low for a CP31 but it forces me to have to put it in a separate room due to it being 220V.

Might have to consider something else that will streamline my process & works in my darkroom so I’m not having to jump through an additional hoop using it in my kitchen.

You might want to look at this thread on your Fujimoto machine

https://www.largeformatphotography....7066-Color-Darkroom-Set-Up-and-Fujimoto-CP-51

Best Mike

 

[Brent Waterworth]

You might want to look at this thread on your Fujimoto machine

https://www.largeformatphotography....7066-Color-Darkroom-Set-Up-and-Fujimoto-CP-51

Best Mike

Good lookin Mike I really appreciate that. If I end up
keeping this unit, this thread will be key for me.

I’m still heavily searching or a CP31 as i’m a renter & my landlord is getting cold feet about having an electrician come & set up what I need to power the machine in the garage…that being said, I may need to look to part ways with the CP-51 after all

My situation with a tiny 1B house & a girlfriend using our dining room table for her “home office” across from the kitchen (where this machine will be able to be hooked up) isn’t going to last long I feel.

Very unfortunate. This thing is clean & maintained, such a shame.

 

[mshchem]

Good lookin Mike I really appreciate that. If I end up
keeping this unit, this thread will be key for me.

I’m still heavily searching or a CP31 as i’m a renter & my landlord is getting cold feet about having an electrician come & set up what I need to power the machine in the garage…that being said, I may need to look to part ways with the CP-51 after all

My situation with a tiny 1B house & a girlfriend using our dining room table for her “home office” across from the kitchen (where this machine will be able to be hooked up) isn’t going to last long I feel.

Very unfortunate. This thing is clean & maintained, such a shame.

OMG, if you don't have the Fujimoto DO NOT mess with it. You have a lot of good options that don't require anything other than a tray. I have a little Nova setup that has no heater, I found it on Ebay new old stock, only upto 8x10 but each slot takes around 1 liter. You don't want much of anything until you get some experience with balancing filtration. Until you have the process figured out, choose a single color film, I would suggest Portra 160. Shoot only one emulsion regardless of the format.

 

[BMbikerider]

[QUOTE=" have a little Nova setup that has no heater, [/QUOTE]

I would not entertain a colour processor without a heater. You will be making a rod for your own back. The essential thing about RA4 developing is keeping the temp constant and relying on the ambient temp of a room I would have thought was very hit or miss. I for one would not even entertain it. The NOVA processors with the latest heater control can keep the temp exactly where it needs to be i.e. 35c. There are some who claim to have success with lower temps but a lower temp will mean longer developing times.

I also have a theory that the work gone into by the various manufacturers is being undermined by the suggestion that a lower temperature can give identical results as those where the temp is at the recommended 35c.

 

[koraks]

The essential thing about RA4 developing is keeping the temp constant and relying on the ambient temp of a room I would have thought was very hit or miss.

Not really in my experience. Prints come out just fine within the normal range of room temperatures in my former darkroom (ca 16C up to ca 28C). I'm not sure if there's a particularly essential thing to RA4 printing, but in any case a specific temperature does not appear to be it.

 

[BMbikerider]

Not really in my experience. Prints come out just fine within the normal range of room temperatures in my former darkroom (ca 16C up to ca 28C). I'm not sure if there's a particularly essential thing to RA4 printing, but in any case a specific temperature does not appear to be it.

My thinking is, we can all agree that the normal development time for RA4 paper is 35C. If the temp is lower than what is normal, this can produce problems, in that the paper has 3 colour layers which will all develop at the same speed when the temp is 35C, but lower than this the layers will probably develop at different rates and may distort the colour balance. (not my words they came from an owner of a large printing Lab ) The same will happen if the paper is developed at a higher temp than 35C. (It used to be called crossed curves) 45s developing a sheet of paper is long enough for me anyway. If you develop a C41 type film for too long or with too low or high a temperature you will find it very difficult to eliminate colour casts.

So if don't have a heated bath what is the water temperature and how long do you develop the paper for? Say if the temp is 22C and you have have worked it out that you need 1.5 mins to produce an image. The next day is a bit warmer, say 29 how do you go about working what time to give? It all sounds very hit or miss. I don't do hit or miss, I have enough problems assessing colour balance anyway.

But you are not me and you are happy with it, fine who am I to say different

 

[brbo]

My thinking is, we can all agree that the normal development time for RA4 paper is 35C. If the temp is lower than what is normal, this can produce problems, in that the paper has 3 colour layers which will all develop at the same speed when the temp is 35C, but lower than this the layers will probably develop at different rates and may distort the colour balance.

That's why you develop for long enough (2min will be long enough at any reasonable ambient temperature) to have all 3 colour layers of paper developed to completion. You can't overdevelop paper as you can overdevelop film. You need to leave it in developer way longer to notice the effect.

 

[BMbikerider]

That's why you develop for long enough (2min will be long enough at any reasonable ambient temperature) to have all 3 colour layers of paper developed to completion. You can't overdevelop paper as you can overdevelop film. You need to leave it in developer way longer to notice the effect.

In that case why do both Fuji and Kodak give specific times and temperatures for the development process. They will have spent many hours and tests to get the optimum from the paper? If there was no problem and the results are the same why not just say develop at whatever temp you think for no more then s 2-3-4-minutes whatever. Your reasoning just doesn't make sense.

 

[brbo]

Because Kodak and Fuji cater to customers that (highly) prioritise speed. Both have invested in even faster developing (with tweaked developers and/or higher processing temperatures) regimes. On the same, standard RA-4 papers.

So, how do you explain that with your "theory" of RA-4 paper colour layers being highly sensitive to temperature?

BTW, as far as I know Kodak actually does list times for tray and drum processing down to mid twenty deg. Celsius. Hardly surprising that the process then works even at lower temperatures.

 

[Nodda Duma]

Speed and consistency of prints from roll to roll in a high volume lab.

At home for personal use, we don’t need to be that anal.

The late Ron Mowrey himself stated here in the past that room temperature RA-4 is perfectly acceptable. As he worked on creating Kodak’s RA-4 Blix formula, I would think he knew as well as anyone whether it’s doable or not.

If you’ve never entertained room temperature RA-4 development, I’d recommend doing so to gain that valuable experience.

 

[BMbikerider]

As I said, your ideas just don't make sense. If a job is worth doing, then do it properly If you are happy with the way you do things, then that is your prerogative, don't let me stop you. I have offered my experience of RA4 printing for nearly 40 years and know from that time and other people who guided me in the early days what can go wrong. End of.

 

[mshchem]

[QUOTE=" have a little Nova setup that has no heater,

I would not entertain a colour processor without a heater. You will be making a rod for your own back. The essential thing about RA4 developing is keeping the temp constant and relying on the ambient temp of a room I would have thought was very hit or miss. I for one would not even entertain it. The NOVA processors with the latest heater control can keep the temp exactly where it needs to be i.e. 35c. There are some who claim to have success with lower temps but a lower temp will mean longer developing times.

I also have a theory that the work gone into by the various manufacturers is being undermined by the suggestion that a lower temperature can give identical results as those where the temp is at the recommended 35c.[/QUOTE]
I actually run everything at 38°C, Fuji lists times for different temperatures to accommodate commercial processors. I use a little Durst RTP unit, Kodak Rapid Color Processors. I used to use tubes with great success.
Nova Processors are hard to find here in the USA, probably the best solution for most low volume folks.
The little Nova thing I have could easily be set into a water bath with a heater. This doesn't resemble other Nova units, no acrylic, tanks are blow molded polyethylene. I will try to post a photo later. Now I'm going to my studio.
Best Regards Mike

 

[MattKing]

With RA-4 consistent and repeatable temperature is very helpful.
The materials are optimized for higher than room temperature use because that greatly increases throughput - important for commercial users.
But the materials behave very well - good, accurate, repeatable colour and contrast - with longer development times and lower temperatures. So if maintaining a higher temperature is an impediment to your using RA-4 materials, work at lower temperatures.

 

[mshchem]

With RA-4 consistent and repeatable temperature is very helpful.
The materials are optimized for higher than room temperature use because that greatly increases throughput - important for commercial users.
But the materials behave very well - good, accurate, repeatable colour and contrast - with longer development times and lower temperatures. So if maintaining a higher temperature is an impediment to your using RA-4 materials, work at lower temperatures.

+1
I have a good friend that I showed how to print with RA-4. He was like many, very concerned about temperature control. I warmed up some developer and blix to around tepid bathwater "highly technical term" we prewarmed a generic tube with the exposed paper inserted. I showed him how to, randomly roll the tube back and forth on the counter. We went through the steps, not cutting the steps short on time. A couple of minutes later he pulled out a perfect color print (again I had spent the time working out exposure and filtration)

The exact nature of Kodak's information is because that IS the correct way to run an operation. Commercial labs hold things close to keep everything under control.

I just want to get the idea across to novices of all ages, don't let exact (higher) temperature and agitation keep you from trying color printing.

Best Mike

 

[DREW WILEY]

Why not learn to do it right to begin with? That way someone won't confuse a color inconsistency issue due to temp variation for some other kind of problem. RA4 is not highly nitpicky in that respect. But once you've settled on your personal time/temp standard, try to keep it within plus/minus 3F. It does make a difference visually. And add to that fine-tuning other steps one at a time, and it can all add up to a tremendous difference overall qualitatively, once everything is optimized. Get securely to first base first, and don't move that around, and then you can figure out how to get to second base, and so forth.

 

[BMbikerider]

You have ignored what several people told you. The higher temp is needed for speed. It should make sense to those who listen.

No I have not ignored them. I have read them and decided through my experience that controlled temperatures (35C) will be better because that there is unlikely to be any consistency with prints not made where a technique not kept within close professionally advised temperatures.

The technical experts at both Kodak and Fuji will I feel, know far better than any 3rd party users and I their advice is more likely to be correct. So under the circumstances I will leave it at that and follow the said advice plus the experience I gained in the nearly 4 decades of printing colour.