Closest filter to create ortho response with pan film.

[pentaxuser]

Here is the filter they made for us. Luckily, double-X is dead before 700nm.

Jarin

What will be interesting for me at least is seeing a print from Ortho 80 Plus and the same print from say FP4+ with an "ortho" filter. Will they be noticeably different or close enough to make Ortho Plus not worth the bother and expense of buying it?

pentaxuser

 

[cowanw]

Thanks guys. The film comes out Friday, and expands to more theaters on the 25th.

Eventually, Schneider optics made a filter to my specifications! 4x5" and 6x6" sizes for our camera's matte boxes. It passes light at >95% from UV up until 570nm, then suddenly hard cuts down to nothing. I got a true Ortho look and it cost me only a stop of light (actually 5/6ths stop).

Jarin

On the strength of this thread we went to the movie today. While the story line was not to my wife's taste the cinematography and lighting was outstanding. I am quite chuffed that you asked for our help two years ago. I hope you get well deserved recognition for this. This movie really should be up for best cinematographer.
Also It would be neat if Schneider made this filter for regular photographers at least for a short while.

 

[cowanw]

And I cast about and found this about the film and filter.
https://deadline.com/video/the-ligh...-eggers-a24-production-value-video-interview/

 

[Bill Burk]

Heard Jarin Blaschke’s name on NPR Fresh Air today as an actor talked about how the light was so intense they got sunburned.

 

[Tumbles]

I loved The Lighthouse. It's beautifully shot.

When watching movies I'm always analyzing all the things going on in the frame, trying to guess things like the sort of lenses that were used. I've become preoccupied with anamorphic lenses. One of my long term projects is to shoot on anamorphic lenses and be able process ecn-2 film at home. Too bad anamorphic lenses tend to be so pricey.

 

[removed account4]

finally-- got a chance to watch the film, great work !

 

[Daniel Fort]

Jarin -- Congratulations on the Oscar nomination for best cinematography for your work on The Lighthouse.

I stumbled upon this discussion searching for a way to simulate ortho film, not for a job but just for my own enjoyment. Read through the whole discussion like a novel. At one point I had a suspicion this was about The Lighthouse. Next page Jarin revealed the project was indeed The Lighthouse.

It was very cool watching a pro pick out some gems among the many posts even though the final solution was a bit different than any suggestion. I didn't know anything about shortpass filters or where to get them but now that I know about the "best" filters for simulating ortho film and the cost of those filters, both in dollars and f/stops, I'm wondering what is the second best solution? Something affordable to an individual? Maybe a Kodak Wratten 44A cyan (minus red) filter might be a good candidate? It was mentioned several times and though it does absorb a fair amount of UV (why is that an issue?), Ansel Adams made a note about it in his book "The Negative" so that's a good endorsement. I've also heard of some photographers using an 80A (tungsten to daylight blue balancing) filter with good results.

Of course the best way to find out is to test it out so I pulled out the old 80A, ordered a 44A, plan on getting a roll of Ilford Ortho Plus (or Rollie Ortho 25 though it is a bit slow) and just for fun, bought a couple of rolls of Double-X spooled into 35mm cassettes. Yeah, it won't be all that accurate of a test because I'm not using vintage ortho film stock but hey--that's as close as I can get for now. Besides, I don't really need a filter because unlike Jarin's situation I could just shoot ortho film, right? Any other suggestions? Maybe compare blue vs. green sensitive x-ray film and see which is closest to that old ortho film look?

 

[Kino]

Any other suggestions? Maybe compare blue vs. green sensitive x-ray film and see which is closest to that old ortho film look?

Go buy some respooled 5366/2366 or 5302/2302 Kodak from the Film Photography Project.

https://filmphotographystore.com/products/35mm-bw-film-kodak-fine-grain-5302-vintage-stock-1-roll

https://filmphotographystore.com/products/35mm-bw-film-kodak-fine-grain-bw-1-roll

It's blue sensitive; not strictly Ortho, but close enough...

 

[MattKing]

Jarin -- Congratulations on the Oscar nomination for best cinematography for your work on The Lighthouse.

+1

 

[pentaxuser]

What will be interesting for me at least is seeing a print from Ortho 80 Plus and the same print from say FP4+ with an "ortho" filter. Will they be noticeably different or close enough to make Ortho Plus not worth the bother and expense of buying it?

pentaxuser

Still interested in this if anyone has two examples to compare and contrast Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Daniel Fort]

You mean like this?

http://www.ottogreule.com/blog/2018/4/4/revisiting-ortho

(Though no attempt to match the panchromatic film to the ortho.)

 

[alanrockwood]

You mean like this?

http://www.ottogreule.com/blog/2018/4/4/revisiting-ortho

(Though no attempt to match the panchromatic film to the ortho.)

For some reason when I go to that site the pictures don't show.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

For some reason when I go to that site the pictures don't show.

If you do a Google image search for "revisiting ortho otto greule", the first image result you get is the first of the two pics of Salmon Bay Bridge in Otto's blog post comparing Ortho with FP4. Click on it and the first related image shown by Google is the second pic.

 

[radiant]

For some reason when I go to that site the pictures don't show.

Try these:

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/...O6EIEA/GREULE_20170715_1B_MIF.jpg?format=500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/...6EIEA/GREULE_20170715_20A_MIF.jpg?format=500w

 

[pentaxuser]

Interesting pictures and helpful in terms of the differences between the two films but unfortunately not a comparison between Ilford Ortho Plus or any Ortho film and FP4+ or any Pan film with the ortho filter that Jarin uses

Looks like I''ll just have to wait a bit longer

pentaxuser

 

[Wallendo]

I enjoyed the movie. I really liked the look of the Petzval lenses used in some scenes.

For any here buying or renting the blu-ray, the special features talking about the cinematography were very educational.

Looking back on this thread, it is interested to see how many members were trying to "educate" an experienced cinematographer. In some ways, that is one of the better things about the APUG community, we are an amalgam of experts, hobbyists, and new photographers sharing thought and ideas..

 

[Daniel Fort]

...unfortunately not a comparison between Ilford Ortho Plus or any Ortho film and FP4+ or any Pan film with the ortho filter that Jarin uses...

Right. In addition, the FP4+ was shot with a yellow filter so it is already going the opposite direction of where we want to go. So never mind that example.

Go buy some respooled 5366/2366 or 5302/2302 Kodak from the Film Photography Project.
...
It's blue sensitive; not strictly Ortho, but close enough...

Or I could get some "real" orthochromatic film and not have to shoot on ISO 1-6 blue sensitive film, right? Note that the goal here is to find a filter that most closely simulates the vintage orthochromatic look using panchromatic film, nothing else.

Obviously Jarin has already done an excellent job on this and is being recognized by his fellow cinematographers for it. I don't want to hijack this discussion--my goal is to simply find something that is within the reach of most photographers.

I was doing some further research and found this:

Orthochromatic emulsion still has too high sensitivity to blue, generally correct sensitivity to green and bright yellow, but has too low sensitivity to orange and is practically insensitive to red, as it does not register wavelengths longer than approximately 560-600 nm (medium yellow to orange). Furthermore, orthochromatic emulsion has decreased sensitivity in the 500 nm area (pale blue), as compared to color-blind emulsions, and so it reproduces brightness of blue colors more accurately.

The Kodak publication pointed out by @alanrockwood makes this easier to visualize, note the dip in the 500 nm area:

Now let's look at some of the off the shelf filters starting with the Kodak Wratten 44A that has been mentioned several times.

A couple of issues with this filter are the cutoff in the UV portion (I'm still not sure why this is a problem) and even at the peak sensitivity it is eating up half the light. Still, this is a relatively common filter worth checking out.

Schneider does have some shortpass filters but I couldn't find one that according to Jarin is, "a hard chop of all wavelengths longer than about 580 nm."

However, Edmund Optics does have one:

It is available in 50mm size, unmounted. Not ideal but doable. However, the issue here is the cost, $465.00 plus tax and shipping. That's a bit too much for my little amateur experiment.

Now let's take another look at the filter Jarin ended up using:

This has some dips and bumps, though not in exactly the right places but maybe it doesn't need to be a super precise shortpass filter? I found a very close match:

This one is priced within my reach, $35 plus tax and shipping for a 50mm sized filter so I went ahead and ordered one. Once I have all the filters and film in my possession I'll run the test. Hopefully something interesting comes out of this though I doubt it will be an Oscar nomination.

BTW--I also contacted Schneider to see if it is possible to get a piece of the same filter they made for Jarin. I am located in the Los Angeles area so maybe they'll let me borrow it for this test?

To be continued...

 

[pentaxuser]

Daniel Fort, thanks for a very precise and informative post #117 . I await the continuation

Thanks again

pentaxuser

 

[Kino]

Or I could get some "real" orthochromatic film and not have to shoot on ISO 1-6 blue sensitive film, right? Note that the goal here is to find a filter that most closely simulates the vintage orthochromatic look using panchromatic film, nothing else.

Obviously Jarin has already done an excellent job on this and is being recognized by his fellow cinematographers for it. I don't want to hijack this discussion--my goal is to simply find something that is within the reach of most photographers.

Sorry our suggestions were no spot on for you; you may have a refund at any moment.

OH and you DID hijack the thread, as Jarin did find a solution which is available to all (despite the cost), so how about starting another thread to keep from confusing the issue?

Thanks and in the future, I'll know not to make suggestions to you on your exacting posts.

Cheers.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I've always used a Wratten no. 44A (minus red) filter when I wanted pan film to mimic ortho.

 

[cowanw]

Please carry on, Daniel

 

[Jarin Blaschke]

Considering that Double-X film is not sensitive to the far red and infared spikes of our Schneider filter, it worked perfectly. (In the end, they combined it with a hot mirror so conceivably Panavision could rent it to clients who shoot digitally.) In pursuit of the most ragged skin tones possible, I wanted to utilize as much UV light as I could. Unfortunately, our filter’s base glass itself cuts out UV light shorter than 350nm so I figure our spectrogram was as good as it gets.

The biggest restriction is that motion picture equipment requires either 4x5 or 6x6 inch filters. 50mm filters from Edmund are thus a non option. However, we did basic tests with the little guy taped inside the lens while we waited for our filters to be made (1 month).

I also had a mandate that the filter could only cost one stop of light, so a hard chop was mandatory. Movies require 1/48 second exposures (faster for slow motion), and Double X is not a fast film. No wavelength gets close to 100% transmission with the 44A, so that was another reason that the inefficient filter was a non-starter for us.

J

Right. In addition, the FP4+ was shot with a yellow filter so it is already going the opposite direction of where we want to go. So never mind that example.



Or I could get some "real" orthochromatic film and not have to shoot on ISO 1-6 blue sensitive film, right? Note that the goal here is to find a filter that most closely simulates the vintage orthochromatic look using panchromatic film, nothing else.

Obviously Jarin has already done an excellent job on this and is being recognized by his fellow cinematographers for it. I don't want to hijack this discussion--my goal is to simply find something that is within the reach of most photographers.

I was doing some further research and found this:




The Kodak publication pointed out by @alanrockwood makes this easier to visualize, note the dip in the 500 nm area:

Now let's look at some of the off the shelf filters starting with the Kodak Wratten 44A that has been mentioned several times.

A couple of issues with this filter are the cutoff in the UV portion (I'm still not sure why this is a problem) and even at the peak sensitivity it is eating up half the light. Still, this is a relatively common filter worth checking out.

Schneider does have some shortpass filters but I couldn't find one that according to Jarin is, "a hard chop of all wavelengths longer than about 580 nm."

However, Edmund Optics does have one:

It is available in 50mm size, unmounted. Not ideal but doable. However, the issue here is the cost, $465.00 plus tax and shipping. That's a bit too much for my little amateur experiment.

Now let's take another look at the filter Jarin ended up using:

This has some dips and bumps, though not in exactly the right places but maybe it doesn't need to be a super precise shortpass filter? I found a very close match:

This one is priced within my reach, $35 plus tax and shipping for a 50mm sized filter so I went ahead and ordered one. Once I have all the filters and film in my possession I'll run the test. Hopefully something interesting comes out of this though I doubt it will be an Oscar nomination.

BTW--I also contacted Schneider to see if it is possible to get a piece of the same filter they made for Jarin. I am located in the Los Angeles area so maybe they'll let me borrow it for this test?

To be continued...

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Sorry our suggestions were no spot on for you; you may have a refund at any moment.

OH and you DID hijack the thread, as Jarin did find a solution which is available to all (despite the cost), so how about starting another thread to keep from confusing the issue?

Thanks and in the future, I'll know not to make suggestions to you on your exacting posts.

Cheers.

Kino,

You need to be a bit thicker-skinned. Daniel is just continuing the discussion and contributing lots of valuable information. Sure, the thread was originally to help Jarin find a solution to his particular problem, but now that his film is made and he's up for an Oscar, the discussion can veer off to address the needs of more of us here on the forum. I tend to think of that less as hijacking the thread than continuing on from an original destination. I, for one, find Daniel's contribution fascinating and eagerly await his further posts.

And, you should really know that blue-sensitive emulsions (or color-blind emulsions as they are also called) are really not anywhere the same as orthochromatic ones. The latter have markedly different renderings of green things, like foliage, than the simple blue-sensitive ones. Sure, blue-sensitive films have a different look than panchromatic ones, but orthochromatic is a different animal too. I don't think Daniel is being too exacting, nor do I think we should stifle his interest and industry, especially in light of the amount of research he's already done and the information he's presented.

Really, you shouldn't get so testy when someone kindly points out a discrepancy or misconception on your part. You were the one that wasn't exactly "spot on" with regard to the discussion about orthochromatic rendering.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Considering that Double-X film is not sensitive to the far red and infared spikes of our Schneider filter, it worked perfectly. (In the end, they combined it with a hot mirror so conceivably Panavision could rent it to clients who shoot digitally.) In pursuit of the most ragged skin tones possible, I wanted to utilize as much UV light as I could. Unfortunately, our filter’s base glass itself cuts out UV light shorter than 350nm so I figure our spectrogram was as good as it gets.

The biggest restriction is that motion picture equipment requires either 4x5 or 6x6 inch filters. 50mm filters from Edmund are thus a non option. However, we did basic tests with the little guy taped inside the lens while we waited for our filters to be made (1 month).

I also had a mandate that the filter could only cost one stop of light, so a hard chop was mandatory. Movies require 1/48 second exposures (faster for slow motion), and Double X is not a fast film. No wavelength gets close to 100% transmission with the 44A, so that was another reason that the inefficient filter was a non-starter for us.

J

Interesting. I'm wondering how similar/different the effect would be on Double-X with your Schneider filter, and Kodak's 44A... speaking purely as a still photographer.

 

[Daniel Fort]

Hi J -- thanks for keeping the discussion alive!

In the end, they combined it with a hot mirror so conceivably Panavision could rent it to clients who shoot digitally.

Well this makes things even more interesting.

Missing in the 124 posts on this topic are pictures comparing ortho with filtered panchromatic. That's what I was originally going to try and do. I thought that filter you had made was out of reach. Well, it is for most photographers but if it is at Panavision there is still hope in including it in my test, once I get all the pieces together of course. I was going to shoot a reference frame with a DSLR (Canon 5D mark III) and the test rolls with two film cameras (Nikon F's) using the same lens (Nikon lenses on Canon bodies is standard practice in stop motion animation.) Now it looks like I should try the filters on the digital camera too. Hum, thought that simply removing the red channel when converting to black and white would do it but I guess not? In a way this is like doing infrared photography using an IR filter on an unmodified digital camera--only different, right?

BTW -- I worked in editorial and post production in the film industry for the past 25+ years and another 25 years before that in still photography. Sorry, no Internet back then, creating a website of my previous work is low priority for me. Now that I'm retired I get to create my own assignments. That's enough chest thumping for now.