Closest filter to create ortho response with pan film.

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Jarin Blaschke, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. Jarin Blaschke

    Jarin Blaschke Member

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    Hi:

    I am photographing a period-set, black and white motion picture and desire to create an orthochromatic look. Not surprisingly, there is no orthochromatic motion picture film, so we will have to create the tonality with filtration. Ideally, it would be a hard chop of all wavelengths longer than about 580 nm, and retaining everything below, including UV. What is my best choice as far as filtration?

    Thanks!

    Jarin
     
  2. Craig

    Craig Subscriber

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    I'd try using a blue filter like an 85B. I've not done that, but worth trying as an experiment on a test shot of still film?
     
  3. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  4. Jens Hallfeldt

    Jens Hallfeldt Member

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    Hi,

    not easy - as you said a minus red filter would be a solution. I have a BG38 cyan filter for microscope use that does this, but is only 25mm (1") diameter.
    Maybe a strong CC50C cyan filter in combination with a blue filter could give a similar effect.

    Best
    Jens
     
  5. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    You might experiment with altering the scene lighting. Obviously you are not working in color, but, for example, "The Element of Crime" achieved its tint from lighting rather than camera filtration (or so I understand).
     
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    Jarin Blaschke

    Jarin Blaschke Member

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    I am not attempting a tint at all - the final film will be shades of true gray. I'm merely looking for orthochromatic response onto panchromatic film. Initially, I thought that strongly gelled lighting would be the way to go about it, but ultimately, I figured that a bright set and camera filtration is probably less distracting to the actors than a deeply cyan set. Additionally, there are many day exterior scenes where I would need the filter.

    Does anyone have a spectral sensitivity chart for CC50? Or a blue 47 for comparison? I wouldn't be opposed to a "blue-sensitive" look with the 47 either - it's just that that filter eats too much light to be practical. Ideally it's 2 stops or less, while working as effectively as possible.


    J
     
  7. Lachlan Young

    Lachlan Young Member

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    What about a Wratten #44a filter? Not sure how much light it loses, but it might be what you're looking for.
     
  8. Jens Hallfeldt

    Jens Hallfeldt Member

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    Jarin,

    the 47 absorbs yellowgreen and yellow, too. So no ortho character this way.
    The CC50C costs about 1 stop light. And some does the additional blue, if needed.

    Edit: I wanted to scan some curves to send to you, but Prof_Pixel found a link with exactly the same data....

    Best
    Jens
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  9. Prof_Pixel

    Prof_Pixel Member

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  10. Jens Hallfeldt

    Jens Hallfeldt Member

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  11. Jens Hallfeldt

    Jens Hallfeldt Member

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    Hi,

    not bad, but he would lose yellow with 44A.
    I guess the look of human skin is important to Jarin...

    Best
    Jens
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  12. OP
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    Jarin Blaschke

    Jarin Blaschke Member

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  13. Mr Bill

    Mr Bill Member

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    From your specs, Wratten 44A looks best (44 is similar, but cuts off UV). Both cut off at about 580 nm though. Unfortunately, in the spectral ranges you want to keep, the 44A still only lets about half the light through.

    I'm going from Kodak pub B-3, the Filter Handbook, but looks like Prof Pixel's limk covers things.
     
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  15. Jens Hallfeldt

    Jens Hallfeldt Member

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    Hi again,

    ok, then one more look at the BG filters. I just discovered that Heliopan offers them.

    The BG38 does not block much here, there is/was a Heliopan Filter 7507, a special order product.
    Heliopan has even the BG39 7508 on their list, it reduces red better than BG38. My favourite then.

    The curves here:
    http://www.schott.com/advanced_opti...ers/nir-cutoff-filters/index.html#block363232

    Best
    Jens
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  16. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    Depends on which specific "Ortho" film you have in mind, what specific pan film you're trying to alter, and what filter choices are actually realistic. Ideally, you'd compare published spectrograms for all three. Some Ortho films tend to be at least twice as sensitive to blue as to green, whereas classic Ortho portrait films were basically minus red. Deep cyan filters are hard to get and prone to fading. A true minus-red like a 58 green is also minus blue, and will tax you three stops of exposure speed. So I'd recommend a medium green. This will still let a fair amt of blue thru, tax you only about two stops, and still be strong enough to render a distinct effect. Just be aware of the significant distinction between daylight and tungsten studio lighting in this respect.
     
  17. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    If you want the closest response to ortho film then use a mnus red (cyan) filter. You can see this from the color wheel as cyan and red are 180 degrees apart.

    You can also use the real stuff. Ortho film is available from Agfa under their Structurix brand of Xray film. It is available in 35 mm and other sizes.

    http://www.tedndt.com/cat/cat28.php
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
  18. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    A true sharp-cutting filter would be difficult to even see through. If this is a motion picture, your actors would either have to be frozen mimes, or your lights will be so bright you'll incinerate them. I dunno. Maybe you've got an f/1 lens and like shallow depth of field. Pan films are actually slightly green-depressed, so cyan is not necessarily going to do it
     
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    Jarin Blaschke

    Jarin Blaschke Member

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    It is motion picture, and the only practical black and white stock available (excepting Orwo - too risky) is Double-X, so we'll be working at these levels:

    ISO 250
    Lighting: 5500k (daylight, HMI and LED)
    aperture: 2.8 and some select faster lenses (tests at Panavision next week)
    exposure: 1/48 sec
     
  20. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Kodak gives an EI of 250 based on the fact that the film will be developed to a lower gamma than for a still film. This is because the film is originally intended to be printed on a high contrast positive stock. I use an EI of 400 and generally treat the film as I would Tri-X. Develop the film a bit more to raise the gamma. A beautiful film.
     
  21. Lachlan Young

    Lachlan Young Member

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    I'd be inclined to try a 44a filter if they have one, (Panavision are probably the most likely people to have one lying around somewhere!) & a selection of strong cyan CC's & some of the regular 80a/b/c/d series - it's really a question of what looks like it could be 'correct' rather than what is absolutely 'correct'. Might also be worth looking at doing some pushes as I've found with Ortho+ that more contrast at the printing end tends to help emphasise the ortho/ blue sensitivity - it can also look astonishingly 'normal' if you aim your process correctly. Are you doing the whole thing photochemically or scanning the negative? Beyond that, the only other thing I can think of would be to see if you can get some uncoated 20s/30s Cooke Panchros & see if they contribute anything useful...
     
  22. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    jarin

    one of the reasons i posted a link to that thread
    is because the word "ortho"
    can mean a bunch of different things ..
    the 44a filter was the one that seems to offer a good look ..
    i can't remember the +/- compensation you need to do when exposing it.
    i never ended up following up on my project and just settled on paper and liquid emulsion instead ,,
     
  23. Luckless

    Luckless Member

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    How much control over scene lighting will you practically have? After all, you technically are effectively 'tinting' your scene. The film responds to wavelengths of light hitting it, and it doesn't really care at what point in the process those wavelengths are filtered. 0.1mm from the film, behind the lens, in front of the lens, or in front of all of the lighting for the scene, what really matters is the wavelengths of light that actually make it to the film and their relatively intensity. (Assuming nothing in the scene will fluoresce/shift spectrum on you)

    If you can take control of EVERY last light in the scene, then it may be more practical to add in more main lights and gel them to a suitable tint, rather than trying to get the scene lit brightly enough for the light to cut through filtering at the camera.

    Even if you're shooting in daylight, it may be effective to flood your scene with extra blue and green lights and use a less aggressive filter to cut the red down into the shadows/blacks.

    Something to experiment with some stills photography before throwing loads of motion film at I would imagine.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  24. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

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    What kind of an "ortho look" are you going for? I've tried doing the exact same thing that you're proposing to do, and the results were NOT what I had in mind. I wanted the contrast/look of old black and white movies that were shot with ortho film--what I got was a DARKER complexion on the faces--the opposite of what I wanted. Then I found out why.

    Just shooting ortho don't cut it for the "olde timey movie look"--you want the kind of face contrast they had?, then you need the kind of makeup they had--which actually was blue/green to INCREASE the exposure for the ortho film to lighten the skin tone in the final product.

    if you're looking for the lighter skin tones, then you'll want to shoot pan film and as much RED sensitivity as possible. If you filter to imitate ortho, then make sure you have green or blue makeup on the models. I found an orange filter on the lens or the strobes works best--if on the camera it doesn't interfere too much for focusing fatigue and lightens the skin tones appreciably. Orange gel over the strobes works the same.

    Or, if you actually want what an old ortho pic would look like--with the darker skintones, then carry on as before--green filter or cyan (minus red)
     
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    Jarin Blaschke

    Jarin Blaschke Member

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    Hi:

    APUG/ Photrio is / has been, for the most part, a really an amazing resource over the years, often pointing me in directions to try, and it's also great to contribute on areas of expertise now and then. As an example, post #9 on this question was immensely helpful. However, I think we have now reached the point where people are not reading all the posts and are making odd assumptions.

    To further repeat for clarity:

    Are you shooting photographs or are you acting as cinematographer on an upcoming motion picture? I am photographing a feature length motion picture.
    Do you know what you are doing? Yes.
    Why don't you use real ortho film? Um... because it is not available as motion picture film. See posts above.
    Why don't you expose Double-X at 400 and develop to a gamma to print on photo paper? Because I am shooting a motion picture. Sigh. See above.
    Do you want the film to look like a stereotype "old-timey" silent film with pale skin tones and pancake makeup? No.
    Do you know that the Ortho look makes skin tones darker and more weathered? Yes. That is the point of all this trouble.
    Do you know how to light well, and understand the rendering of different wavelengths of light? Yes.
    Do you really have control of all the lighting on the film? Yes, that is my job.
    Why don't you just gel the lights a strong cyan color? Because it is very distracting for a name actor to immerse themselves in their role and the deeply detailed world of the film while everything is lit overwhelmingly cyan.

    I can't state any more than that. There should be an industry announcement this month, with an intent to deliver the finished film at the end of 2018. Thank you to all those with helpful replies. My gratitude to this forum. The response to this thread makes me think that there may be a demand for one of the manufacturers to make a steep "red-cut" "ortho-simulating" filter. I'll report back if Panavision uncovers anything...

    Best,
    Jarin
     
  26. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Member

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    good suggestion but, the 'hard-chop' requirement of the OP may require a special filter.
     
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