• Welcome to Photrio!
    Registration is fast and free. Join today to unlock search, see fewer ads, and access all forum features.
    Click here to sign up

Bubbles in the negatives

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
203,388
Messages
2,853,837
Members
101,815
Latest member
DorianG
Recent bookmarks
0
Technically you shouldn't reuse the C41 developer with a JOBO due to oxidation, the whole replenisher thing is for roller transport machines or hand inversion. I'm going to wiggle my finger as an old guy and tell you that because you've done it for 10 years, it doesn't mean that you'd get great results. Speaking about your friend. I think I know who your friend is and if you check out his social media accounts, you'll see the effects of reusing chemistry. He uses Fuji Frontier scanners and Pakon, colors shouldn't look like that.

I guess my point is that you can do something incorrectly for a long time and just get away with results that are good for you.

Back to your issue, is it fresh film?
Is the developer too foamy while pouring it out? those bubbles happened during developing.
 
Technically you shouldn't reuse the C41 developer with a JOBO due to oxidation, the whole replenisher thing is for roller transport machines or hand inversion. I'm going to wiggle my finger as an old guy and tell you that because you've done it for 10 years, it doesn't mean that you'd get great results. Speaking about your friend. I think I know who your friend is and if you check out his social media accounts, you'll see the effects of reusing chemistry. He uses Fuji Frontier scanners and Pakon, colors shouldn't look like that.

I guess my point is that you can do something incorrectly for a long time and just get away with results that are good for you.

Back to your issue, is it fresh film?
Is the developer too foamy while pouring it out? those bubbles happened during developing.

Yes, the friend is a different person that is local to me. he runs replenished ECN-2 on a Jobo and C-41 on Noritsus, he worked with ATLs for C-41 for years with replenishing and his results were always very good. i talked to the FB guy but i haven't seen his work.

i edited the previous message, happens with both fresh and expired film, always worse with expired.
the developer was very foamy yes. it was fine a few runs before.

i've repeatedly thought about one-shot but i haven't found a way to make it viable cost-wise yet. chemistry is really expensive here in brazil
 
I started a thread last year about foaming with replenished D76. The group consensus was that Ilford includes a surfactant in their emulsions and that this will accumulate with developer reuse. After adding a prewash/presoak it has nut reoccurred.
 
I started a thread last year about foaming with replenished D76. The group consensus was that Ilford includes a surfactant in their emulsions and that this will accumulate with developer reuse. After adding a prewash/presoak it has nut reoccurred.

Interesting, i've also read that commercial c-41 chemistry included surfactants to aid in wetting of the film.
interestingly i only recall foaming happening with ECN-2 twice for me. one extremely expired roll of Fuji cine film (the other rolls developed alongside it were perfect) and more recently a fresh AHU 500t which was developed without a pre-bath due to not containing remjet.
i'm gonna try pre-wetting and monitor what happens. i don't get much c-41 film nor can afford to run 30+ rolls when a roll of c-41 film costs more than $20 in my country, but i'm gonna try to monitor it more closely.
 
I got in touch with the guy that sold me my ATL-1500 last year. he's running replenished c-41 at 150 rolls/month and his process is exactly like mine, except that he pre-soaks/washes the film to get it to temperature, hes using bellini chemistry (like i do) and Kodak interchangeably depending on what he can get.
i talked to someone else just now, this person is using a hobbyist kit and developing as usual with time extension, they used to pre-soak and not have issues with foam, but now that they don't they are heavy foaming after about 6 rolls.
 
I’ve tried reusing the c41 developer at some point and I ran control strips and plotted them with a densitomer and it was a mess. I trust JOBO and Kodak. I have a Fuji Frontier and I could really see the crossover when I started replenishing. It went back to normal with one shot developer. I know chemistry is expensive but have you thought about mixing the developer from raw ingredients? It’s not that hard and not the chemicals are not that exotic. Bleach is something I wouldn’t mix from raw, but developer I would.

I have a hunch that reusing/expired film is a deadly combo for bubbles.
 
I started a thread last year about foaming with replenished D76. The group consensus was that Ilford includes a surfactant in their emulsions and that this will accumulate with developer reuse. After adding a prewash/presoak it has nut reoccurred.
Now that you mentioned it, I had issues with rXTOL too. I switched over to 1:1 because of that. I totally forgot about it.

Presoaking definitely helps, with C41 there’s a change that you can measure with control strips. Probably not an issue if you don’t print optically and just correct in post.
 
I’ve tried reusing the c41 developer at some point and I ran control strips and plotted them with a densitomer and it was a mess. I trust JOBO and Kodak. I have a Fuji Frontier and I could really see the crossover when I started replenishing. It went back to normal with one shot developer. I know chemistry is expensive but have you thought about mixing the developer from raw ingredients? It’s not that hard and not the chemicals are not that exotic. Bleach is something I wouldn’t mix from raw, but developer I would.

I have a hunch that reusing/expired film is a deadly combo for bubbles.
I've thought about it, at the time CD-4 was hard to get and i started buying bellini chems. but i have another way now and could make it. i currently make ECN-2 and i'm looking into making bleach. only sticking with commercial fixer.

i plan on getting a densitometer at one point and thought of doing DIY test strips with color charts. my friend does that with a noritsu and then constantly calibrates it if i'm not mistaken. since we can't source the strips, unfortunately every lab in the country is replenishing without proper process control strips. most running V30s or Jobos to develop remjet film, most of them in c-41 as well.

one-shot would be good for piece of mind but i think it's only possible in the DIY way as you suggested, i will look into it soon, currently trying to do that with E6
 
Definitely try pre washing the film and go from there.
 
Definitely try pre washing the film and go from there.

for sure! for the time being everything is telling me that it might be enough. thanks to you and everyone else the replied on the thread.
 
It's still not clear to me how re-using C41 developer would increase the risk of bubbles. Commercial C41 developer IME has a surfactant incorporated into it that promotes even wetting, which makes sense in the light of the short development time. Films can also contain surfactants, either for the same reason as above, or to obtain a favorable behavior of the liquid emulsion during coating. This can/will end up in part in the developer. However, there's a couple of reasons why these surfactants aren't really a problem - or, at least, shouldn't be:
1: regardless of any foaming, as long as the developer liquid covers the reels, there's no way the foam will interfere with development since the liquid developer will displace the foam.
2: as said, it's in the developer to begin with, so the problem would exist just the same with fresh developer.

What I can imagine is scenarios in which the following conditions hold true:
1: There's a surfactant in the developer and/or the film or some other compound that promotes foaming.
2: There's sufficient agitation for this foaming to become significant.
3: The reels spend a considerable amount of time statically suspended partly above the level of the developer.
Such scenarios are thus caused not by reuse of the developer, but mistakes elsewhere in the process.

All considered, the cause is likely elsewhere, not in the fact that the developer is reused.
Reusing developer (without replenishment) can indeed have other negative side-effects.
 
It's still not clear to me how re-using C41 developer would increase the risk of bubbles. Commercial C41 developer IME has a surfactant incorporated into it that promotes even wetting, which makes sense in the light of the short development time. Films can also contain surfactants, either for the same reason as above, or to obtain a favorable behavior of the liquid emulsion during coating. This can/will end up in part in the developer. However, there's a couple of reasons why these surfactants aren't really a problem - or, at least, shouldn't be:
1: regardless of any foaming, as long as the developer liquid covers the reels, there's no way the foam will interfere with development since the liquid developer will displace the foam.
2: as said, it's in the developer to begin with, so the problem would exist just the same with fresh developer.

What I can imagine is scenarios in which the following conditions hold true:
1: There's a surfactant in the developer and/or the film or some other compound that promotes foaming.
2: There's sufficient agitation for this foaming to become significant.
3: The reels spend a considerable amount of time statically suspended partly above the level of the developer.
Such scenarios are thus caused not by reuse of the developer, but mistakes elsewhere in the process.

All considered, the cause is likely elsewhere, not in the fact that the developer is reused.
Reusing developer (without replenishment) can indeed have other negative side-effects.

Yes, that makes perfect sense, one generally attributes these issues to insufficient developer volume or wetting agent contamination, however my tank and reel were bought brand new and never touched a wetting agent, as for volume, a 2520 tank takes 270ml for sufficient coverage of the reels, i always ran 500ml, then increased to 650ml as as suggestion from a friend. the more the developer is reused and replenished the more foaming starts to appear and that has been my experience with c-41 for a while now. i've read that it could be a change in pH caused by re-usage (with replenishment) but i don't have a reliable method to test that.
all measuring beakers, tanks, reels and the machine's tank are fully clean and haven't had any contact with wetting agents.

i've seen lower rotation speeds being mentioned as a way to aid in this issue but my machine only runs at 75RPM, so it unfortunately isn't something i can test.
the constant agitation shouldn't be allowing the bubbles to stick to the film but they somehow are.
my process is: the machine auto pumps the developer through the lift while the tank is spinning. at 18 seconds left i open the machine's lid, take out the tank and pour the developer into a 1L becker, then i put stop bath immediately and proceed as usual.
my jobo lift motor isn't working so i can't let the lift do the disposal of the developer, since it's being replenished that wouldn't be of interest to me anyway as the drain plumbing could contaminate the developer. i've experienced with different speeds and ways of removing developer from the tank but it didn't really make a difference IME
when i initially had these issues i bought new measuring beckers to do c-41 mixing but the problem never went away. i've had bubbles even when i used to develop with a stainless tank, but working with higher volume had solved the issue for me, on a rotary process it doesn't seem to make a difference so far.

it doesn't seem to be a super common issue but it certainly exists in rotary process tubes and there's a few different facebook posts about it. but personally i'm still avoidant of the idea of adding Edwal LFN to my developer, as generally suggested as a fix.
 
The only thing I can think of that would result in this issue with a rotation machine like a Jobo is if you take too much time filling the tank and leaving it sitting upright, before clamping it onto the magnet coupling of the Jobo. However, it's easy to avoid since the Jobo tanks fill & drain quite rapidly. You need to ensure that you fill the tank swiftly and then promptly start agitation; don't wait a few seconds to start the machine, get going immediately.
 
The only thing I can think of that would result in this issue with a rotation machine like a Jobo is if you take too much time filling the tank and leaving it sitting upright, before clamping it onto the magnet coupling of the Jobo. However, it's easy to avoid since the Jobo tanks fill & drain quite rapidly. You need to ensure that you fill the tank swiftly and then promptly start agitation; don't wait a few seconds to start the machine, get going immediately.

Yes, that's what i've heard a few times, unfortunately in my case it doesn't apply because the machine does auto pumping of the chemistry, so the tanks is always sideways and rotating, it's only when i take it out that it's not, but i don't generally take more than 5 seconds to dump.

earlier today i chatted with someone who is using a paterson tank and a AGO i believe, they are facing foaming issues with Bellini's 1L developer after a few runs of developing, back when they used to pre-wet they always managed to go to stated capacity or more with the developer, but stopped due to something happening to shadows, probably caused by not pre-wetting twice i assume. PE talked about why it should be done more than once in a thread i can't find. but basically due to the first bath not reaching 38c inside the tank due to the heat transfer to the plastic
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom