Back in June 2018, the Ferrania Folks hoped to be in continuous production by Fall

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Nzoomed

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@dutchsteammachine I am talking about RTM, NAC, ATR and Capture. I've been testing some of the above. NAC in particular communicated that they were developing a new cassette tape 2+ years ago and a lot of the talk has been "WAAAA where's my tape? Why is it taking soooooo long?" from people who know nothing about the hurdles they are jumping.

There's no chance of type IV cassette tape again, and type II is a pipe dream. Nobody is manufacturing the chemicals required, the few companies that did have dismantled their CrO2 reactors and cobalt doping production; To restart would mean investment of millions to build new such facilities which conform to current environmental regulations. Unfortunately the products requiring manufacture for type II and IV cassettes have no other uses so there's no market for them.

I am prepared to say what I've published elsewhere in public. The NAC tape sucks. It's awful. But I hope they continue to develop it and produce something better.
The RTM FOX tape is good. Not outstanding, but the best cassette tape currently in production. Somewhere between a classic TDK D and AD in most measurable respects though it's noise floor isn't anything to write home about. It's a thoroughly decent starting point. Again people are moaning at the price which is around 3 Euros or dollarpounds. But when you account for inflation that is exactly what a decent type I cost in the mid 80s.
I had been looking into this myself, and thought that chromium was still used in data tapes for computers, I think the biggest issue is that they coat on different base thickness and the formulas are still different. Type IV tapes would be very nice indeed.
Kind of ironic that we still have vinyl records and no type I or IV tapes. Also ironic is that it appears harder to make than kodachrome.

As far as NAC goes, they are in the process of coating their own tape in house due to the lack of suppliers for tape.
They claim it will sound closer to a type II tape, but not sure how they will change the formula.
 

Agulliver

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BASF and 3M dismantled their chromium dioxide reactors. There are none left in the world, nobody can produce CrO2 in any decent quantity.

Data tapes might use "metal evaporated particles" which unfortunately bear no resemblance to what's in type IV cassette tapes.

It;s type I for the future. Even the cobalt doped type I and "pseudochrome" type II are a pipe dream for now.
 

Nzoomed

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BASF and 3M dismantled their chromium dioxide reactors. There are none left in the world, nobody can produce CrO2 in any decent quantity.

Data tapes might use "metal evaporated particles" which unfortunately bear no resemblance to what's in type IV cassette tapes.

It;s type I for the future. Even the cobalt doped type I and "pseudochrome" type II are a pipe dream for now.

Im sure a chemical company in China could produce CrO2 easily enough if requested.
Anyway, it says on wikipedia that its still used for data tapes.
Also quoted is "Bayer AG of Germany, Toda Kogyo and Sakai Chemical of Japan also do or can produce the magnetic particles for commercial applications." which would be interesting to follow up on if this information is still up to date.
The main issue i heard was that the VOC's in the solvents were the main reason why Type II or IV were discontinued, but i dont know whats so different with these solvents vs the solvents that are used in producing ferric oxide tapes.

I see maxell still produce type I cassettes, which brings me to question why NAC are having so many issues sourcing tape?
 

Agulliver

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Well if you wish to ask the real expert.....mosey on down to tapeheads.net and ask Wilhelm....he knows more about cassette tape production than any of us having been one of the top men at BASF for many years. From what he's consistently said for some years, CrO2 and cobalt doped Fe2O3 aren't going to happen again nor are type IV.
 

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Well if you wish to ask the real expert.....mosey on down to tapeheads.net and ask Wilhelm....he knows more about cassette tape production than any of us having been one of the top men at BASF for many years. From what he's consistently said for some years, CrO2 and cobalt doped Fe2O3 aren't going to happen again nor are type IV.
Well we are pretty screwed then. NOS tapes are getting ridiculously expensive and are drying up. Dont want to use crappy FeO3 tapes and i thought NAC were supposed to be cobalt doping their FeO3 formula?
Ive talked about it on tapeheads a while back, never got a straight answer other than its not going to happen.
 

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NAC never mentioned cobalt doping their cassette tape. They have advertised it as a "chrome killer" and as the best ferric ever made. However, I am sad to report that at present it is rubbish. It's truly awful, sadly, though I hope they improve it.

The RTM FOX tape is somewhere close to TDK AD in it's performance which is the best cassette tape currently in production. There is *nothing* wrong with Fe2O3 formulae if you have a decent cassette deck.

Wilhelm will give straight answers, but you might not like them. He is as close to the "horses mouth" as you can get as he was a senior man at BASF in charge of production of cassette tape in Europe and the USA. He also knows the people who were in charge at Maxell and 3M (Scotch). His posts can get technical but the short story is cobalt doped ferrics, CrO2 or pseudochromes and type IV ain't gonna happen again. Even producing a ferric tape longer than C60 is difficult at present though the reintroduction of C90 is possibly feasible.

But...all this is only relevant to this forum when we compare the efforts to manufacture new cassette tapes with Ferrania's efforts to make film. It's not simple. It does take YEARS to achieve. There's no guarantee of success (NAC have produced something worse than those old 3 in a bag no-name cassettes). But talking Ferrania down certainly won't help. Acting angry because they haven't produced it according to a timeline inside your own head won't help either It took RTM two years to work from highly regarded reel to reel tape to make cassette tape. NAC took two years to produce crap. Film Ferrania are doing their best so secure *our* hobby.
 

Nzoomed

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NAC never mentioned cobalt doping their cassette tape. They have advertised it as a "chrome killer" and as the best ferric ever made. However, I am sad to report that at present it is rubbish. It's truly awful, sadly, though I hope they improve it.

The RTM FOX tape is somewhere close to TDK AD in it's performance which is the best cassette tape currently in production. There is *nothing* wrong with Fe2O3 formulae if you have a decent cassette deck.

Wilhelm will give straight answers, but you might not like them. He is as close to the "horses mouth" as you can get as he was a senior man at BASF in charge of production of cassette tape in Europe and the USA. He also knows the people who were in charge at Maxell and 3M (Scotch). His posts can get technical but the short story is cobalt doped ferrics, CrO2 or pseudochromes and type IV ain't gonna happen again. Even producing a ferric tape longer than C60 is difficult at present though the reintroduction of C90 is possibly feasible.

But...all this is only relevant to this forum when we compare the efforts to manufacture new cassette tapes with Ferrania's efforts to make film. It's not simple. It does take YEARS to achieve. There's no guarantee of success (NAC have produced something worse than those old 3 in a bag no-name cassettes). But talking Ferrania down certainly won't help. Acting angry because they haven't produced it according to a timeline inside your own head won't help either It took RTM two years to work from highly regarded reel to reel tape to make cassette tape. NAC took two years to produce crap. Film Ferrania are doing their best so secure *our* hobby.
Thats good to know that RTM is doing audio cassettes. Last time i heard, it was not possible because the polyester base thickness their studio tapes were is much thicker than cassette tapes.
Obviously there is enough demand for them to do coating runs on a thinner base. I think NAC may as well just get their pancakes made by RTM, but i guess that since its early days with NAC, they may be able to tweak things until its better.
C90 tape is doable, its just really the demand i believe that warrants it not feasable, C90 use a thinner polyester, which i believe is also more difficult to source. If demand increases, i think we might see it. All i know is NAC are apparently selling more tapes than ever before in the company's history, mostly because they are pretty much the last ones left?
Whats the story with Maxell anyway? I see they still have a type I tape available.
RTM is using BASF formula, so im sure their quality is top notch. I may as well stockpile NOS tapes anyway :tongue:

And as far as Ferrania goes, yes i agree, im sick of all the bashing going on, need to let them do their work, they have had nothing but alot of hurdles to get through, especially with the way the government runs over there.
It looks like they have a private investor, so im sure they are making progress.
 

Agulliver

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Whats the story with Maxell anyway? I see they still have a type I tape available.
RTM is using BASF formula, so im sure their quality is top notch. I may as well stockpile NOS tapes anyway :tongue:

And as far as Ferrania goes, yes i agree, im sick of all the bashing going on, need to let them do their work, they have had nothing but alot of hurdles to get through, especially with the way the government runs over there.
It looks like they have a private investor, so im sure they are making progress.

Maxell haven't produced cassette tape themselves for at least a decade. They've been marketing Maxell UR cassettes which are actually not bad....but they're made from pancakes supplied by ACME in China, and previously from Korea. Maxell have the shells and slip sheets custom printed and sell them as Maxell UR. But ACME has recently stopped manufacturing pancakes...so that's coming to an end.

NAC have had a similar task to Film Ferrania in some ways. NAC are one of the last large scale cassette duplicators in the business. They've survived the nadir and are now as you say, more busy than ever. The upsurge means that every copy of Guardians Of The Galaxy Awesome Mix sold worldwide was duplicated by NAC. And I can confirm it's an excellent product. No issues there. But they've never manufactured tape. Like almost all duplication houses they bought tape in...and their supply has run out. So they realised a couple of years ago that they had to manufacture their own in order to maintain their main business.

Here's where things are a bit similar to Film Ferrnia....what NAC have done is take old tape coating and manufacturing machinery and return it to production. The machine they have is some 45 feet long and is a complex beast. Making magnetic tape was never easy. Furthermore in a past life it was converted to coat magnetic stripe for credit cards. NAC have had to install it in their building, retro-convert it to coat cassette tape and learn about mixing the Fe2O3 sludge and coating the tape. Their first cassettes, which sadly are actually on sale, are abysmal. But...hopefully they will make progress and improve their tape. It will be much cheaper for them than buying from RTM - who's product also took two years of development but they didn't engage in social media so it arrived as a surprise.

Film Ferrania are bringing old machinery back to life having rescued it and moved it to a new location. They have the additional problems that the local and national Italian governments have put in their way. However they also have experts and people who have made film before. That said, it was never going to be something they could accomplish quickly. If it was easy to manufacture camera film, surely many of us would be doing it?
 
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Let's get this thread back on topic. Please discuss the cassette tape Ferrannia is going to put in continuous production. :D

I wonder if Dave will hurt his neck from shaking his head when reading recent posts.
 

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Let's get this thread back on topic. Please discuss the cassette tape Ferrannia is going to put in continuous production. :D

I wonder if Dave will hurt his neck from shaking his head when reading recent posts.
I wonder if Dave is reaching out to NAC to see if there is anything to be gained by sharing notes.
 
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cmacd123

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Let's get this thread back on topic. Please discuss the cassette tape Ferrannia is going to put in continuous production. :D.

Ferrannia was part of 3M who made their OWN recording tape for years. they were in fact the first folks to make any in the US. that business was part of the transfer of the "Media Group" (film, tape and Diskettes) to a spin off called IMATION. SOOOOO ferrannia may very well have a microfiche or three with the secrets of good mag tape. But lets first look for the next milestone which I guess will be P30 in size 120.
 

Nzoomed

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Maxell haven't produced cassette tape themselves for at least a decade. They've been marketing Maxell UR cassettes which are actually not bad....but they're made from pancakes supplied by ACME in China, and previously from Korea. Maxell have the shells and slip sheets custom printed and sell them as Maxell UR. But ACME has recently stopped manufacturing pancakes...so that's coming to an end.

NAC have had a similar task to Film Ferrania in some ways. NAC are one of the last large scale cassette duplicators in the business. They've survived the nadir and are now as you say, more busy than ever. The upsurge means that every copy of Guardians Of The Galaxy Awesome Mix sold worldwide was duplicated by NAC. And I can confirm it's an excellent product. No issues there. But they've never manufactured tape. Like almost all duplication houses they bought tape in...and their supply has run out. So they realised a couple of years ago that they had to manufacture their own in order to maintain their main business.

Here's where things are a bit similar to Film Ferrnia....what NAC have done is take old tape coating and manufacturing machinery and return it to production. The machine they have is some 45 feet long and is a complex beast. Making magnetic tape was never easy. Furthermore in a past life it was converted to coat magnetic stripe for credit cards. NAC have had to install it in their building, retro-convert it to coat cassette tape and learn about mixing the Fe2O3 sludge and coating the tape. Their first cassettes, which sadly are actually on sale, are abysmal. But...hopefully they will make progress and improve their tape. It will be much cheaper for them than buying from RTM - who's product also took two years of development but they didn't engage in social media so it arrived as a surprise.

Film Ferrania are bringing old machinery back to life having rescued it and moved it to a new location. They have the additional problems that the local and national Italian governments have put in their way. However they also have experts and people who have made film before. That said, it was never going to be something they could accomplish quickly. If it was easy to manufacture camera film, surely many of us would be doing it?

Ok i thought Maxell was the ones producing it. Is ACME still coating Fe2O3 tapes? Why has NAC not sourced it from them?
Either way, its good to see some manufacturers of high quality Type I tape out there.

Someday it might be possible to get sound super8 film again? Who knows lol
 
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Ok i thought Maxell was the ones producing it. Is ACME still coating Fe2O3 tapes? Why has NAC not sourced it from them?
Either way, its good to see some manufacturers of high quality Type I tape out there.

Someday it might be possible to get sound super8 film again? Who knows lol
Hmm, I would like that.

Wonder if it is possible to build a machine that takes super8 cassettes without audio and cements audio tape at the right places. I did see a video where somebody was doing this, i think to record a new audio track and put it down.
Such a machine would likely be too expensive though, but it would be cool to have pro-audio tape like RTM on super 8!
 
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cmacd123

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Hmm, I would like that.

Wonder if it is possible to build a machine that takes super8 cassettes without audio and cements audio tape at the right places. I did see a video where somebody was doing this, i think to record a new audio track and put it down.

at one time in the distant past there were sound super 8 Cameras and film, the film came in an oversize cartridge that allowed for the sound to be recorded at the correct location. the camera would also take a common silent super 8 cartridge. I understand the system was NOT a great sales success.

I understand there are some folks who have designed striping services for processed Super8 film. don't expect super fidelity, the main stripe is very tiny in the specifications and some folks attempt to record the second audio channel on the Balance stripe, which is minuscule.
 
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at one time in the distant past there were sound super 8 Cameras and film, the film came in an oversize cartridge that allowed for the sound to be recorded at the correct location. the camera would also take a common silent super 8 cartridge. I understand the system was NOT a great sales success.

I understand there are some folks who have designed striping services for processed Super8 film. don't expect super fidelity, the main stripe is very tiny in the specifications and some folks attempt to record the second audio channel on the Balance stripe, which is minuscule.
Oh yeah, I forgot you needed special cassettes too. Makes it even more unfeasible.

Guess I will have to use a prortable RTR recorder to record audio!
 
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cmacd123

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Awesome update thanks!

Interesting to learn about the ring coater, something we were not aware of :smile:

Also gives an idea about the drying process. this little coater is probably only set up for one layer But one has to no doubt try many formuals for each layer if you are trying to create a new formula.
 

Nzoomed

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Also gives an idea about the drying process. this little coater is probably only set up for one layer But one has to no doubt try many formuals for each layer if you are trying to create a new formula.
yes very true, would be perfect for testing each layer and other parts of the emulsion before tweaking on the larger coater.
 

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More videos like this would be an excellent addition to the story of this project, so I hope they continue making them!
 

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I wish them the very best.

My only negative thought is this.

If it is taking them this long and they have just produced a B&W film. How long will it take them to produce a C41 or E6 film?

I may know nothing of colour film manufacturing but I know it is very complicated and complex compared to B&W, which is also complex and complicated.

So with all the complexity and complication of film manufacturing, will they succeed? (I really hope so but..............................)
 
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cmacd123

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I may know nothing of colour film manufacturing but I know it is very complicated and complex compared to B&W, which is also complex and complicated.)

some B&W films are already more than one layer, I may be wrong but I recall someone saying that P30 is at least two layers. so it is a part of the path to revisiting colour.
 
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