Another Kodak Vision3 remjet film thread

[Joel_L]

I have some scans that have a lot of white and I don't see any cast. I have scans to redo that will better show if there is a problem with color casts.

Stay tuned.

 

[Joel_L]

I loaded these in a photo program then used a color picker to look at the whites in the photos. I did not see any real swings towards cyan. The picker goes 0 to 255, red was always near blue and green in value sometimes a few points more than both, sometimes a little less, sometimes more or less than one but not both of the others. So really, nothing that gives me an impression or being too cyan, too my eyes or non scientific measurements.

 

[koraks]

These last two are better than the other ones, but still not optimal IMO. But hey, if you don't notice any problems, don't worry about it.

 

[Joel_L]

When I step outside, they do look "right" to me. Always interested in hearing what you have to say though.

 

[MattKing]

These look like they have a pretty strong cyan cast to me. Are you seeing this as well?

+1
We are, however, both viewing them through a very convoluted distribution system (a website on the internet) and an extremely flexible display tool (in my case, a laptop screen).

 

[Cholentpot]

I have a calibrated screen and it looks fine to me.

 

[Joel_L]

I have also calibrated my flow, scanner, monitor, and printer. To me, there is a night and day difference between my first scans and now.

Basically what I did to make my film profile was to take a photo with the Vision 3 of a color card that has 6 shades of gray scale. Then in Silverfast nulled all the shades. I was actually able to get all six shades to null fairly well, took many iterations. There are also 12 color patches that when done looked reasonable with the exception of violet which was off a little, don't know that it surprises me.

I'm always looking to improve this if I can, so all comments are welcome.

Now, I still really want to see what I can do with a wet print, need to get going on that darkroom setup.

 

[koraks]

Always interested in hearing what you have to say though.

Ok, my take on this is that the whites aren't necessarily a reliable point to do your calibration on, especially the pure whites. Since they'll end up 0xFF (or 0xFFFF) anyway, evidently they'll be in line unless something is very, very wrong. Looking at the image of the big white flower, there are all sorts of hues in the white that are quite natural, but not on a pure greyscale. So when you say that you used white as one way to fix things, I don't think that's going to do what you think it does.

Secondly, as I said, the second set of two images looks much more natural in terms of color balance, especially the first one shows an odd unbalance in color saturation, with the greens and magentas being quite muted, but you've got a relatively saturated violet one (a petunia?) on the left side. In the real scene I would expect the saturation of the magenta flower to be of a similar chroma value as the violet one, but in the photo it's more muted. Likewise, the greens don't look as pure as I'd expect them and I suspect this has to do with the cyan/red balance. This is also visible in the greens on the right-hand image.

These are the kind of issues I'd expect to run into when doing a pretty good job at color correcting film that has underwent something odd underway (aged, cross-processed etc.) - you may end up with color patches that match the hues fairly well at least in a large part of the light-dark scale, but there will be odd chroma issues going on.
Mind you I'm NOT talking about overall saturation of the image; I'm sure someone will bring that up and argue that you could just slide the saturation to the right and then fix what that annoying guy is going on about, but again, this is NOT the case. You'd need to selectively saturate or desaturate (the direction is an artistic choice, mostly) specific hues to bring them back into balance.

12 color patches

How many of those patches represent green hues? I have a feeling that your color checker may emphasize the primaries, grey scales and maybe some skin tones, could this be the case? Anyway, if you want to optimize further, I'd suggest giving it a go with a more refined color checker with more hues on and between the primaries that vary in lightness and chroma. The kind of images you've been posting so far certainly help to spot big issues, but when it comes to more subtle ones, they fall short due to their emphasis on certain hues and lack of others. As such, they currently tell me that you're doing a remarkably good job on digital color correction, but aren't there yet when it comes to a true natural rendering of the scene.

PS: I sampled some patches on the big white flower just to give it a try and they all lean towards green slightly. Again, this need not be a problem because these greenish hues can be natural given the botany and light quality, but it does show that trying to balance a white flower to neutral white does not necessarily give you a neutral image, any more than trying to balance a grey cloud to neutral grey will achieve the same thing. The real world is fickle, color-wise.

 

[Joel_L]

Thanks, that is helpful. I do have some ECN2 chemistry now. My flowers are now on their way out. I think I will find someplace where I can shoot two rolls of the same things and process one in C41 and the other in ECN2 and see what I get.

Now a question for everyone, do you ever get scans or prints that you felt covered a wide color gamut well? To me it seems whether I printed a set or sent film out to a lab to be printed, I generally get nice results but there is always a range of color that is not quite right though looks good enough. My favorite medium is transparencies, where slight color shifts seems the norm. I seemed to recall years ago the notion of if you like blues, Kodak, if you like greens, Fuji Then there were the characteristic difference between company film types.

In any case, I am pleased with results I'm getting and still have 310 feet left to further optimize.

Stay tuned.

 

[koraks]

do you ever get scans or prints that you felt covered a wide color gamut well?

Yes. Kodak Ektar, developed by the book, printed onto either Fuji or Kodak RA4 paper, captures a very large gamut without dramatically emphasizing certain hues at the cost of others. Ektar is one of those films that if you get it right, it's pretty much a breeze to print and nearly everything just looks great on it - provided you like its highly saturated look.

I also shoot a lot of expired Fuji Superia 200 and while it's good for its age, it does suffer from the problems you mention. For instance subdued reds next to vibrant greens.

 

[Joel_L]

Today I tried some Bellini C41 chemicals. This is the first time I have seen C41 with only one part for the developer. I do like the separate bleach and fix.
My first inclination is to say I think the color is better. Still using driveway cleaner and never have to manually remove remjet from the film.

 

[Cholentpot]

Can we get a rundown overall? I'm about to start processing my ECN-II from over the summer in C-41 blix kit.

After finishing the Blix, soak and agitate the film in a solution of driveway cleaner 10ml into 500ml for how long? What temp? Do it once? And then rinse.

 

[Joel_L]

See post 41, I do the DWC, and on processor rinse at process temp, 38C

 

[Cholentpot]

See post 41, I do the DWC, and on processor rinse at process temp, 38C

Thanks.

I'll have to try this for a standard shank and swizzle tank.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Dealing with the remjet is soooo worth it once you've got the hang of it.

Vision3 50D & 500T w/ 85B; DIY ECN-2
V800 negative scan



I think I may like 500T even more than 50D, at least in 35mm. Its extremely versatile with a warming filter or two in the shirt pocket.

(the bun was extremely stale)

 

[Cholentpot]

Just put a short roll of 250D through to test. The Dev/Blix is over a year old and had almost 50 rolls put through it so I'm not expecting much by color.

Presoak, Dev, Blix and then 10ml of Zep Driveway and Concrete Cleaner into 500ml of 102 degree water. Shook for a minute in a standard Jobo tank and checked on it. Lots and lots of foam and bubbles. The Remjet was still on the film but washed off quite easily. The reels were pretty dirty, on par with baking soda. Question is the results, so far I've not seen that it removed the remjet any better than baking soda. I'll post the scans later.

 

[Cholentpot]

Here are my results

Kodak Vision 3 250D @ 200, Yashica FX-2 Zykkor 28 2.8, C-41 Powder Blix kit, Zep Driveway Cleaner after Blix.


Colors are nice, but I see streaking. Not sure if it's remjet leftovers or the film is scratched but I'm leaning strongly into leftover Remjet

Most definitely remjet on bottom of this one, bottom center right

I don't see any on this one

Bottom center of this one some left in Remjet.

In conclusion, colors are nice. There's what to keep testing with this. It's not any more effective than baking soda for removal but it might keep the colors from getting wonky. Lots of bubbles to deal with. Also, temp of solution might need to be a bit higher and it might take a few shakes and rinses with more of the DWC. With the baking soda after the shake the water would come off black. I didn't see that with this.

 

[Cholentpot]

Follow up.

Here's a shot on 250D from last year. Chemistry was fresher and it was not as well used. Say roll #30 instead of #45 for the DWC roll.

Elan II, 250D, Baking Soda before Dev and everything else as per powdered C-41 blix kit instructions.

DWC looks better to me color wise.

 

[Joel_L]

I'm surprised you are getting remjet left on the film with DWC, mine have come out perfectly clean 100% of the time, some 15 rolls now. After the initial soak and shake, there is two more rinses with the DWC. Wonder if it is a brand thing. Someone else in this thread also used DWC ( different brand than what I have ) but also got good results.

I figure I'm shooting 36 exposure rolls for just over $4 a roll for film, I'm quite happy with the results.

 

[Cholentpot]

I'm surprised you are getting remjet left on the film with DWC, mine have come out perfectly clean 100% of the time, some 15 rolls now. After the initial soak and shake, there is two more rinses with the DWC. Wonder if it is a brand thing. Someone else in this thread also used DWC ( different brand than what I have ) but also got good results.

I figure I'm shooting 36 exposure rolls for just over $4 a roll for film, I'm quite happy with the results.

I forgot to soak. And it might not have been hot enough. I'm using Zep, the brand someone else is using

Do you get loads of bubbles? Also, I wore gloves. At the dilution we're talking are gloves necessary?

Another question, do you get remjet contamination in dev and blix because you're cleaning it off after instead of before?

 

[Joel_L]

I do get the suds after shaking, never worried about it. I wear thin Nitril gloves whenever I process film anyway so don't worry about the DWC. I have splashed some on my hands before and just wash them, no issues.

Yes, I do get remjet in all steps of processing. I use my chems one shot so I don't worry about it.

 

[Cholentpot]

I do get the suds after shaking, never worried about it. I wear thin Nitril gloves whenever I process film anyway so don't worry about the DWC. I have splashed some on my hands before and just wash them, no issues.

Yes, I do get remjet in all steps of processing. I use my chems one shot so I don't worry about it.

I don't one shot. Would this process work if I removed the remjet before processing? Do the DWC before the dev, give it a nice rinse and then develop.

 

[Cholentpot]

Follow up to the follow up.

I took a small strip of unexposed 250D and repeated just the DWC step. I raised the temp a bit and it a 30 second soak and the agitated. Dumped the DWC and gave it a quick wash then pulled off reel. Still pretty dirty and I had to wash off but still got REMJET all over the emulsion side. And then I had an idea what I was doing wrong.

I took a small strip of unexposed 50D and repeated just the DWC step again. This time I soaked for 1 min, agitated hard for 1 min, dumped the DWC which looked sooty this time, filled agitated and dumped 3-4 times and then, I TOOK OFF MY GLOVES and rubbed off what little REMJET was left. Very little REMJET left and the REMJET wiped off under running water with nothing getting on the emulsion.

Question. Would my colors be just as nice if I did this step with baking soda after dev and blix or would the baking soda still mess up my colors a bit. DWC is easier to work with and it seems the suds clean the reels and tank. Baking Soda is cheaper and safer to work with and washes off enough that my Dev and Blix aren't contaminated.

More tests to follow.

 

[Joel_L]

I initially started by removing the remjet first. I came to the conclusion that it was affecting the development, grain and color. Moving the DWC to the end is what consistently gave me good results. I think it was koraks that made a comment that maybe the emulsion is getting saturated before the developer so the developer can't to a good job. In anycase removing remjet last is what helped.

I have heard you can filter the chems and reuse them, I think my ECN2 kit mentions this.

I'm still surprised you are getting and remjet left on your film. I use white cotton gloves to handle my film and never see a hint of residue, even when wiping the film between my fingers.

If you haven't already done so, you might start at the beginning of this thread, I have posted comments on my progress and show negatives and sample scans.

 

[Cholentpot]

I initially started by removing the remjet first. I came to the conclusion that it was affecting the development, grain and color. Moving the DWC to the end is what consistently gave me good results. I think it was koraks that made a comment that maybe the emulsion is getting saturated before the developer so the developer can't to a good job. In anycase removing remjet last is what helped.

I have heard you can filter the chems and reuse them, I think my ECN2 kit mentions this.

I'm still surprised you are getting and remjet left on your film. I use white cotton gloves to handle my film and never see a hint of residue, even when wiping the film between my fingers.

If you haven't already done so, you might start at the beginning of this thread, I have posted comments on my progress and show negatives and sample scans.

I read through the whole thread a few times. I was using nitrile gloves and the remjet sticks to them. I think a hot water presoak and rinse will take off the majority of the REMJET that might get into the developer. Only way to know is to do it.