Adox CMS 20II in pota

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jun 10, 2022

Rudeofus said:
No, it was tested on some other film stock. The person performing these tests has since left the forum, and sadly, the thread has all but disappeared. Even archive.org could not find a trace of it, although some search engines point to a (now disappeared) thread here on photrio.

I can ask the original poster, maybe he still has access to this data.

Thanks. There's one more low contrast developer of some repute - Delagi 8 which is a variant of POTA that I came to know through @gorbas:

Water @38C: 500 ml
Sodium sulphite: 25 g
Phenidone: 1.4 g
Borax: 0.8 g
0.2% BTZ solution: 15 ml
Water to make: 1 l

Use one shot. Process at 20C. Intermittent agitation with initial 20 seconds of agitation followed by 10 seconds every minute thereafter. Normal developing time is 15 minutes (for Kodak Technical Pan at EI:32-64).

The developer is claimed to give a normal contrast range of 7-10 stops with Tech-Pan.

(This version of Delagi 8 formula appeared in Popular Photography May 1985.)

I might give this a try.

250swb · Jun 11, 2022

I think the overriding opinion would be that CMS20 II and Adotech IV is the perfect match up for full tone normal looking negatives, go wacky at your peril. But fortunately for enquiring photographers other alternatives are genuinely out there, like my preference for 510 Pyro, just let's stop blaming the film given all the backup info behind it.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jun 13, 2022

Rudeofus said:
There was also a thread here with the title "A very low contrast, low pH, full speed POTA variant", but it seems to have dropped of the face of the internet. The developers tested in this thread were all (if my memory serves me right) 2 g Dimezone-S, 20 g Sodium Sulfite, and 1g of some secondary developer like Ascorbic Acid, Pyrogallol and Hydroquinone. They all produced beautiful straight flat characteristic curves.

@Rudeofus: Are these the developers you're talking about?
20 g/l Na2SO3 + 1 g/l Ascorbic Acid
20 g/l Na2SO3 + 1 g/l Ascorbic Acid + 1 g/l Phenidone
20 g/l Na2SO3 + 1 g/l Hydroquinone
20 g/l Na2SO3 + 1 g/l Hydroquinone + 1 g/l Phenidone
20 g/l Na2SO3 + 1 g/l Catechol
20 g/l Na2SO3 + 1 g/l Catechol + 1 g/l Phenidone

Which one do you recommend the most for Adox CMS 20ii to get maximum speed? What is the prescribed agitation scheme?

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 13, 2022

250swb said:
I think the overriding opinion would be that CMS20 II and Adotech IV is the perfect match up for full tone normal looking negatives, go wacky at your peril. But fortunately for enquiring photographers other alternatives are genuinely out there, like my preference for 510 Pyro, just let's stop blaming the film given all the backup info behind it.

I'm just finishing up a video comparing three developers, with Adotech IV. Xtol, POTA, Caffenol. Encouraged by the results, I'll probably do a part 2 with other developers, such as 2-bath Pyrocat-HD, LC-1B, H&W Control, maybe even D-23...

Rudeofus · Jun 13, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
@Rudeofus: Are these the developers you're talking about?
20 g/l Na2SO3 + 1 g/l Ascorbic Acid
20 g/l Na2SO3 + 1 g/l Ascorbic Acid + 1 g/l Phenidone
20 g/l Na2SO3 + 1 g/l Hydroquinone
20 g/l Na2SO3 + 1 g/l Hydroquinone + 1 g/l Phenidone
20 g/l Na2SO3 + 1 g/l Catechol
20 g/l Na2SO3 + 1 g/l Catechol + 1 g/l Phenidone

Which one do you recommend the most for Adox CMS 20ii to get maximum speed? What is the prescribed agitation scheme?

I would definitely not recommend the versions without the Phenidone, these will show little to no development at all. All the other ones with Phenidone, Sodium Sulfite and some secondary development agent worked well according to the original thread author. I personally would avoid the ascorbate version unless you have a sound method for dealing with iron and copper ions.

I could ask the original author about results with formula 4 and 6, if this helps you.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jun 13, 2022

Rudeofus said:
I could ask the original author about results with formula 4 and 6, if this helps you.

Thank you! That would be helpful not only to me but also to others who are not in a position to use Adotec developer for CMS 20ii.

Alan Johnson · Jun 13, 2022

From the Film Developing Cookbook , TD-LC 103 worked well with CMS20II at EI =12

Adox CMS20 developer

Hello Alan, More testing has shown that this version of H&W Control gives blotchy skies when used with Adox CMS 20 II, it is NOT recommended with this film. From my notes , the good large optical prints I made from CMS 20 in 2006 were developed in Adotech developer. The films that appear did...

www.photrio.com

pentaxuser · Jun 13, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
I'm just finishing up a video comparing three developers, with Adotech IV. Xtol, POTA, Caffenol. Encouraged by the results, I'll probably do a part 2 with other developers, such as 2-bath Pyrocat-HD, LC-1B, H&W Control, maybe even D-23...

Sounds interesting, Andrew. Is this a comparison of CMS20 in these developers?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 13, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Sounds interesting, Andrew. Is this a comparison of CMS20 in these developers?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Yes, it is!

MattKing · Jun 13, 2022

Rudeofus said:
There are several interesting alternatives to POTA in the Film Developing Cookbook.

There was also a thread here with the title "A very low contrast, low pH, full speed POTA variant", but it seems to have dropped of the face of the internet. The developers tested in this thread were all (if my memory serves me right) 2 g Dimezone-S, 20 g Sodium Sulfite, and 1g of some secondary developer like Ascorbic Acid, Pyrogallol and Hydroquinone. They all produced beautiful straight flat characteristic curves.

Try looking for that thread again - some of it is accessible.

pentaxuser · Jun 13, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
Yes, it is!

Thanks I look forward to the videos. As long as you are able to speak clearly while chomping on your donuts feel free to continue to do so

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 13, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Thanks I look forward to the videos. As long as you are able to speak clearly while chomping on your donuts feel free to continue to do so

pentaxuser

My mum taught me to never speak with food in mouth... doughnuts okay, though.

MattKing · Jun 13, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
My mum taught me to never speak with food in mouth... doughnuts okay, though.

And with Timbits, the offence is, at most, momentary

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 13, 2022

MattKing said:
And with Timbits, the offence is, at most, momentary

I'll stuff a Timbit in each cheek, and make like Marlon Brando, in The Godfather

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jun 13, 2022

Alan Johnson said:
From the Film Developing Cookbook , TD-LC 103 worked well with CMS20II at EI =12

Adox CMS20 developer

Hello Alan, More testing has shown that this version of H&W Control gives blotchy skies when used with Adox CMS 20 II, it is NOT recommended with this film. From my notes , the good large optical prints I made from CMS 20 in 2006 were developed in Adotech developer. The films that appear did...

www.photrio.com

This is interesting, thanks Alan. There's also the Anneman-Gainer developer which is frugal in its use of Phenidone and yet has a tendency, according to the person who worked on it, for uneven development. Interestingly, this developer has been used to push process CMS20II (EI:80) with some success.

Craig · Jun 14, 2022

Out of curiosity, would Technidol developer ( designed for Kodak Technical Pan film) work with CMS20? I still have one of the packages of Technidol ( somewhere) but have never compared the two films.

revdoc · Jun 14, 2022

Rudeofus said:
There was also a thread here with the title "A very low contrast, low pH, full speed POTA variant", but it seems to have dropped of the face of the internet.

This thread?

A very low contrast, low pH, full speed POTA variant

I thought this would be fun to post based on continuing experiments with low contrast developers. This was only a first attempt in this particular direction so I'm wondering how far it can go with modifications, substitutions etc. It is essentially a modification of Horwitz's D-512 which was...

www.photrio.com

Rudeofus · Jun 14, 2022

revdoc said:
This thread?

A very low contrast, low pH, full speed POTA variant

I thought this would be fun to post based on continuing experiments with low contrast developers. This was only a first attempt in this particular direction so I'm wondering how far it can go with modifications, substitutions etc. It is essentially a modification of Horwitz's D-512 which was...

www.photrio.com

Wow, you found it! I swear, that a couple of days ago neither duckduckgo nor google were able to find it. Yes, that's the one.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jun 14, 2022

Rudeofus said:
Wow, you found it! I swear, that a couple of days ago neither duckduckgo nor google were able to find it. Yes, that's the one.

But most of the useful posts in it have been deleted.

Rudeofus · Jun 14, 2022

I contacted Michael (the thread creator) and asked him about this developer and its applicapility to CMS II.

With his permission I will quote some part of his responses:

The most successful approach (widest exposure range/speed) with CMS and similar films seems to be development in a somewhat dilute, Phenidone-based (it would have to be) relatively high pH developer in an attempt to get maximum local exhaustion and inhibition effects. The price you pay is high fog, and a fairly s-shaped curve. The Adox developer dedicated to CMS 20 (currently fourth generation of Adotech), which I believe is made by SPUR, is this sort of thing. It is a strange concoction including both Phenidone and Dimezone-S. The resulting curves are acceptable (borderline) for 6-7 stops. [...] It was optimized specifically for Kodak TMY-2, and then for Fuji Acros, not anything like these CMS microfilms. A preliminary approach would be to start with less ascorbate, no bromide and work upward from there.

If you’re interested I can try some sensitometry with CMS20 II, Adotech and a few of the POTA-type developers I came up with. The were all based on 20g/l sulfite, 0.5g/l Dimezone-S and various amounts of ascorbic acid ranging from 0.2-0.5g/l, with pH adjusted to 8.2-8.4. The concentrations of both developing agents were originally 2x these amounts at the same pH and same concentration of sulfite with obviously shorter development times. HQ could be used instead of AA. I ended up adding KBr in small increments since one of my goals was minimum fog. For something like CMS20 I might start with less AA as a starting point.

I should add to this, that control of fog is paramount to keeping grain in check. If you want to use CMS II for its potential resolution advantage over TMX, try to avoid fog even if it costs half a stop of film speed.

Alan Johnson · Jun 14, 2022

Although Adox CMS20 II is the best known one, there appears to be a later film Spur Ultra R 800 which has a slightly higher speed in its dedicated developer and I have been using this. Mine is edge marked "Spur Orthopan UR"

https://www.macodirect.de/media/pdf/7b/92/77/SUR8011_Datenblatt_e.pdf

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jun 14, 2022

Rudeofus said:
I contacted Michael (the thread creator) and asked him about this developer and its applicapility to CMS II.

With his permission I will quote some part of his responses:

Thank you Rudy (and also Michael). This is good info and I guess 20g/l sulfite, 0.5g/l Dimezone-S and 0.35g/l ascorbic acid would be a good starting point, but how much KBr should be used? If there is a specific instantiation of Michael's low contrast developers that he recommends for CMS 20ii, it would be very valuable.

Rudeofus · Jun 14, 2022

I can forward this info to Michael, but here is my view on this: Sodium Sulfite is an extremely weakly buffered alkali, and as soon as buffering action sets in, its pH is already too low for developers. You will therefore get widely varying amounts of restrainer depending on your specific stash of bromide and how you mix the whole thing and how long it sits there after you mixed it.

Remember also, that these amounts of Phenidone don't dissolve easily in water, therefore it's tempting to start with Phenidone stock solution in Propylene Glycol. However, I vaguely remember Mark Overton's (@albada ) observation, that the presence of Propylene Gylcol somehow changes the properties of PC type developers. Oh, and your Phenidone is certainly fresh, because nobody ever bought a larger stash and kept it for years

This means, that there are lots of variations to be expected, and one recipe working perfectly for one may cause either significant fog or speed loss for someone else.

AgX · Jun 14, 2022

Alan Johnson said:
Although Adox CMS20 II is the best known one, there appears to be a later film Spur Ultra R 800 which has a slightly higher speed in its dedicated developer and I have been using this. Mine is edge marked "Spur Orthopan UR"

Ultra R 800 = Orthopan UR

The slight differences evoked at processing at the dedicated Spur developer aside, the Ultra and the CMS are described with identical characteristics.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jun 14, 2022

Rudeofus said:
Remember also, that these amounts of Phenidone don't dissolve easily in water, therefore it's tempting to start with Phenidone stock solution in Propylene Glycol.

I haven't tried and have no plans to try either, but there is a patent that describes several methods to prepare readily dissolvable salts of Phenidone/Dimezone:

U.S. Patent for Photographic developing agents containing stable, soluble, pyrazolidinones Patent (Patent # 4,753,869 issued June 28, 1988) - Justia Patents Search

Salts of 1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidinones with organic sulphonic acids, which are useful photographic silver halide developing agents.

patents.justia.com

Here is one method:
"Compound II [Dimezone-S] (1.0 g) in THF (35 ml) and ether (20 ml) was mixed with 5-sulphosalicylic acid (1.27 g) in THF (15 ml) at room temperature. The solvent was evaporated to give a fawn solid Yield 1.81 g (80%)."

@Nikola Dulgiarov might be able to comment on the feasibility and effectiveness of the methods described in the patent.

Adox CMS 20II in pota

Raghu Kuvempunagar

250swb

Raghu Kuvempunagar

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

Rudeofus

Raghu Kuvempunagar

Alan Johnson

Adox CMS20 developer

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

MattKing

Moderator

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

MattKing

Moderator

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

Raghu Kuvempunagar

Adox CMS20 developer

Craig

revdoc

A very low contrast, low pH, full speed POTA variant

Rudeofus

A very low contrast, low pH, full speed POTA variant

Raghu Kuvempunagar

Rudeofus

Alan Johnson

Raghu Kuvempunagar

Rudeofus

AgX

Raghu Kuvempunagar

U.S. Patent for Photographic developing agents containing stable, soluble, pyrazolidinones Patent (Patent # 4,753,869 issued June 28, 1988) - Justia Patents Search

Adox CMS 20II in pota

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency