Adox CMS 20II in pota

[MattKing]

Try looking for that thread again - some of it is accessible.

Wow, you found it! I swear, that a couple of days ago neither duckduckgo nor google were able to find it. Yes, that's the one.

Sometimes I don't think anyone notices what I post

 

[pentaxuser]

My mum taught me to never speak with food in mouth... doughnuts okay, though.

I've got to that stage in life where my body development would benefit from me chomping on that donut that rings my middle to make it disappear.

pentaxuser

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Over the next days or weeks I'm planning on shooting a series of 8 half-frame exposures on CMS 20 II with the kit below and developing each strip in a different developer. Loading and chopping out the film in the dark should help conserve more of the 72 exposures. Rating at 12, no filtration, with an incident reading or zone 3 shadows w/ notes on exposure & ambient conditions.

Developers on the list so far (in no particular order):

1. POTA (Phenidone)
2. Pyrocat-HD @ 1+?+100 (Phenidone + Pyro)
3. DK-50 @ 1+1 (MQ, borate alkali)
4. HC-110 syrup @ 1+119
5. B&W reversal attempt?

I'm open to to suggestions for times for the above developers or other suggestions for a particular combo (filtration, reciprocity, etc).

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

5. B&W reversal attempt?


I'm open to to suggestions for times for the above developers or other suggestions for a particular combo (filtration, reciprocity, etc).

Adox CMS 20 Slides, what bleaching chem ??? - Page 4

I tried several ways to reverse ADOX CMS 20, I failed to obtain good results. Well, I obtained interesting burnt lomographic results: https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592977@N05/22569910808/in/dateposted-public/ But I'd like to obtain a quality result like if it was from one of...

www.largeformatphotography.info

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Thanks for the link. I've got a chloride bleach (and ammonia) on hand but not that particular formulation. How was the Dmin? The first dev looks interesting; I may give that a try as the current list doesn't include a PQ variation.

I was planning on using my usual D-19 as well, if I can squeeze enough frames out of the roll. I'll probably rate the CMS 20 @ 6 for reversal.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Over the next days or weeks I'm planning on shooting a series of 8 half-frame exposures on CMS 20 II with the kit below and developing each strip in a different developer. Loading and chopping out the film in the dark should help conserve more of the 72 exposures. Rating at 12, no filtration, with an incident reading or zone 3 shadows w/ notes on exposure & ambient conditions.

Developers on the list so far (in no particular order):

1. POTA (Phenidone)
2. Pyrocat-HD @ 1+?+100 (Phenidone + Pyro)
3. DK-50 @ 1+1 (MQ, borate alkali)
4. HC-110 syrup @ 1+119
5. B&W reversal attempt?


View attachment 308082


I'm open to to suggestions for times for the above developers or other suggestions for a particular combo (filtration, reciprocity, etc).

You will find from those developers that POTA will come out on top. HC110 at that dilution would give it a run for its money. Pyrocat-HD is so so, and I got my best results with a two-bath version. I've used DK-50 quite a bit over the years (with conventional films), and I have to say that at a dilution of 1+1, it will be too much for CMS20, if continuous tone is your goal. If you have to use it, try something like 1+5. Same with D-19. High contrast developer.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Thanks for the link. I've got a chloride bleach (and ammonia) on hand but not that particular formulation. How was the Dmin? The first dev looks interesting; I may give that a try as the current list doesn't include a PQ variation.

The first developer is an adaptation of a print developer (Gerald Koch's PQ-variant of Kalogen whose formula was given to me by @mrred). Normally, the first developer in reversal processing has a halide solvent like sodium thiocyanate. I used a bit of thiocyanate in the first developer initially but it gave me low DMax for this film and the slides looked pale. So I dropped it. Even without thiocyanate, the highlights were clear. Maybe shooting at EI:6 and not at the box speed of 20 did the magic.

The film is very sensitive to both bleaching and fixing and these steps need to be done with care. Dichromate bleach, at least in the strength used for normal B&W film, can cause problems. Copper sulphate bleach is relatively better as it is a milder and slow acting bleach. If your copper sulphate bleach is of lower strength, it should be OK.

I got decent slides using this process. YMMV. I worked on CMS 20ii reversal during my early days of reversal processing and Adox's Scala reversal kit was not available at that time. Adox's kit should be a more reliable option today if you have access to it. [Edit: Datasheet for the reversal kit doesn't have any info on CMS 20ii but this page gives some info on first development time.]

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I've shot 16mm microfilm (Kodak RAM and Fuji Super HR) and tried different developers on it. The best tonality I got was with Caffenol CL-CN. Beat POTA. dilute Rodinal wasn't too bad and same with Beutler's. The Caffenol variant got the job done though. I kind of lost interest in shooting 16mm though so I never really pursued it.

Here is a bad scan from a flatbed, but you get the idea about the tonality for a microfilm. This is Kodak RAM. Pretty extreme range of tones and it held up.

 

[Rudeofus]

Sometimes I don't think anyone notices what I post

I did notice what you posted. What I did not notice were your superpowers to get threads picked up by search engines, or to fix the links duckduckgo provided me with. I was under the assumption, that @revdoc just used a better search engine ...

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Matt is pretty amazing.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Part 1 is up. No doughnuts in this one... In Part 2, I'll tackle a few more developers! Can't promise if there won't be any doughnuts in there, though! The more I use this tricky film, the more I like it. Just ordered another 4x5 box. Shhhhh! Don't tell the wife (in the words of PentaxPete)!

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Part 1 is up.

Excellent production & gauntlet of developers; this will definitely inform how I process my series of 35mm CMS 20 snippets.

To make things more difficult on myself I'm thinking about also carrying an FM2 w/ kodak 2238 for use with the same scene/lenses/metering/tank. Some combination of 1 full frame shot, 1 half-frame from the same scene, and another half-frame of the same subject with a different perspective, aperture, or focal length.

Looking forward to part 2!

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Part 1 is up. The more I use this tricky film, the more I like it. Just ordered another 4x5 box. [/MEDIA]

Thanks Andrew. Are you considering developing this film in any of the low contrast developers by Michael that @Rudeofus mentioned earlier? That would be an interesting comparison.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Thanks Andrew. Are you considering developing this film in any of the low contrast developers by Michael that @Rudeofus mentioned earlier? That would be an interesting comparison.

TD-LC 103 mentioned is on my list. I'll also be trying LC-1B, which I used to use to develop APHS copy film years ago. For Part 3, I'll be seeing if pre-exposure has any benefits with this film.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Very clear video Andrew. Thanks to AgX for noting that the Spur Ultra R 800 I am using is the same as Adox CMS20 II. I have been shooting it at EI=32 hand held with an image stabilized lens and developing in my homebrew Metol-CD4 2-bath designated MeCD4 for 5m +5m 20C. It is kind of a low contrast derivative of the now discontinued Emofin. I doubt it will get EI =32 for silver gelatin printing.

 

[AgX]

Thanks to AgX for noting that the Spur Ultra R 800 I am using is the same as Adox CMS20 II.

I did not say they are the same film. I do not want to go into detail into the origines of these two films.
But their characteristics are so very similar that to me it does not matter at all.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I did not say they are the same film. I do not want to go into detail into the origines of these two films.
But their characteristics are so very similar that to me it does not matter at all.

I'd love to hear the details!

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Part 1 is up. No doughnuts in this one... In Part 2, I'll tackle a few more developers! Can't promise if there won't be any doughnuts in there, though! The more I use this tricky film, the more I like it. Just ordered another 4x5 box. Shhhhh! Don't tell the wife (in the words of PentaxPete)!

That pretty much mirrors my experience. Caffenol just beat POTA. I'll be curious what you find with other developers Andrew.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

One of the arguments against Caffenol is that the negatives it produces are noticeably grainy. CMS 20ii is reputed be very fine grain and very high resolution film. So Caffenol seems to be an odd choice for this film.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

One of the arguments against Caffenol is that the negatives it produces are noticeably grainy. CMS 20ii is reputed be very fine grain and very high resolution film. So Caffenol seems to be an odd choice for this film.

This is probably of a function of the format size. Grain characteristics will be notably exaggerated in a smaller format, which hopefully I'll be able to verify.

 

[pentaxuser]

Interesting and useful video, Andrew. I note that you said you might use Xtol at 1+5 but against the Xtol neg you write 1+2. Was there any particular reason you moved away from 1+5?

Can I ask what was the amount of Xtol concentrate you used? Kodak recommends a min of 100ml but that involves quite big tanks. My Jobo 120 tank only takes 500ml but on a 1+5 dilution and a min of 100ml I'd need a 600ml tank

Effectively POTA is a one-off use only so if it was a 135 film rather than 4x5 users of POTA waste 750ml each time but there may be no way round this "use instantly" requirement and wastage is just a necessary consequence

Adox, I think, claims that to get EI 20 you really need Adotech IV so I wonder how POTA and Caffenol measure up at EI 20?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

One of the arguments against Caffenol is that the negatives it produces are noticeably grainy. CMS 20ii is reputed be very fine grain and very high resolution film. So Caffenol seems to be an odd choice for this film.

Yes, I did notice this compared to POTA and Adotech IV. I'm not talking a little grainy, it's very noticeable, especially in the highlights.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Interesting and useful video, Andrew. I note that you said you might use Xtol at 1+5 but against the Xtol neg you write 1+2. Was there any particular reason you moved away from 1+5?

Can I ask what was the amount of Xtol concentrate you used? Kodak recommends a min of 100ml but that involves quite big tanks. My Jobo 120 tank only takes 500ml but on a 1+5 dilution and a min of 100ml I'd need a 600ml tank

Effectively POTA is a one-off use only so if it was a 135 film rather than 4x5 users of POTA waste 750ml each time but there may be no way round this "use instantly" requirement and wastage is just a necessary consequence

Adox, I think, claims that to get EI 20 you really need Adotech IV so I wonder how POTA and Caffenol measure up at EI 20?

Thanks

pentaxuser

I changed my mind later in the darkroom, when I remembered developing xray film in Xtol at 1+5 and getting extremely thin results. I'm glad I switched to 1+2, as it gave me a fully developed negative... I used 200ml of stock, as all films were tray developed. As long as I have at least 20ml of stock per sheet, I'm fine.
With POTA, you should be able to do 10 to 12 rolls of film...but with it's 1.5 hour shelf life, not practical. Luckily, it costs pennies to make.
I've shot CMS 20 at EI 20, and developed in Adotech IV. The shadows were too thin for my liking. I've standardised on EI 10... so whatever developer gives me a decent zone I at that EI, I'll give serious consideration. Caffenol seemed to give me a better zone I at EI 10. I could probably be happy with EI 12. Xtol was terrible (at that dilution). POTA was okay.
I must do further testing!

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Andrew. It certainly looks to be a 2 horse race between Adotech IV and POTA given there is some agreement that Caffenol grain-wise tends to defeat the objective on negligible grain

I suppose my slight fixation on the best developer at EI 20 is based on a desire to square the circle of handheld with a 35mm camera and the "reasonableness" of say a shutter speed of about a 1/40th to 1/ 50th at f11 with a 50 mm lens and reasonable DoF

Just one thought on POTA. Is it possible to make up 500ml or 250ml and if so do you simply divide the ingredients by 2 or is there in fact no way round just wasting some of the 1L that the standard amounts of ingredients are designed to make?

pentaxuser

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Thanks Andrew. It certainly looks to be a 2 horse race between Adotech IV and POTA given there is some agreement that Caffenol grain-wise tends to defeat the objective on negligible grain

I suppose my slight fixation on the best developer at EI 20 is based on a desire to square the circle of handheld with a 35mm camera and the "reasonableness" of say a shutter speed of about a 1/40th to 1/ 50th at f11 with a 50 mm lens and reasonable DoF

Just one thought on POTA. Is it possible to make up 500ml or 250ml and if so do you simply divide the ingredients by 2 or is there in fact no way round just wasting some of the 1L that the standard amounts of ingredients are designed to make?

pentaxuser

Yes, you can cut the formula in half. I did it all the time when working with lith films. I'll have to see how POTA responds at EI 20.