8x10 on a Budget

[polyglot]

As I recall, you haven't been shooting the 4x5 very long, maybe a year? Is there any particular reason you want to start with 8x10 already? I would suggest that you probably want to spend a whole bunch more time (and film) on practising to use the 4x5 and getting the absolute most possible out of that format before diving into 8x10.

8x10 is expensive, just the film, and that's without even worrying about camera costs.

Anyway to answer your question as-asked rather than what I think is a good idea:
- get a cheap lens that covers 8x10 like a 240 or 300 Symmar-S; it should be under $250 if you're patient
- make a sliding-box camera; you can light-seal it with felt or velvet
- make or buy ($100?) a film holder
- buy a box of x-ray film (super cheap!)
- get to it!

That will get you 8x10 but at IMHO no benefit over a decent 4x5 system other than larger contact prints. You won't have movements and you may not have accurate focusing and you sure can't afford one of the fancy soft-focus lenses (Verito, P&S, etc) that are one of the few purposes for which 4x5 is not sufficient.

If you have no enlarger and want into 8x10 in order to get bigger (contact) prints, I would suggest that you are much better off buying (or building if shipping is a problem) a 4x5 enlarger. I paid $150 for my DeVere 504 and $80 for the EL-Nikkor in it. Shipping will be horrible for you, but you might be able to buy just the enlarger head (bulb, mixer, bellows and lens) and rig up your own frame for it to support it above the paper and avoid shipping the huge+expensive enlarger frame. See some pictures of the Beseler 45MX for inspiration on the framework.

Edit: I also recall that you were struggling to get enough light for your 4x5 portraits. 8x10 makes it four times (two stops) worse! Unless you've solved your lighting situation, I think you would make far more improvement in your images from buying lights than any other camera-related equipment.

 

[pdeeh]

It sometimes seems as if existing 8x10 shooters positively discourage others from trying 8x10.

Not everybody's motives, interests or priorities are the same.

 

[polyglot]

It sometimes seems as if existing 8x10 shooters positively discourage others from trying 8x10.

Not everybody's motives, interests or priorities are the same.

If you're referring to me, I'm not an 8x10 shooter. 6x7 and 4x5". I'm just trying to inject some realism into the debate with regards to the stated budget and how it might best be used to improve the images one can take.

Consider this: the OP's whole budget will buy about 50 sheets of HP5 shipped from B&H, far less in anything from Kodak. And that's without a camera to put it in or lens to expose it with!

 

[pdeeh]

Fair enough. I was referring to your post in this instance as a specific example of something I see as not uncommon, but I made an unwarranted assumption about your using 8x10. My apologies.
I'll stand by the general drift of my post though, which is that my overall impression is that people new to a format (or indeed to film) seem often to be told what they "should" be doing.
But that discussion is probably for an ethics or lounge thread, and I don't want to trigger a wildly off-topic shift for this thread

 

[Wayne]

The OP is planning to use X-ray film which is easily available in Pakistan, as he posted elsewhere.

I generally like to give people the benefit of the doubt that they know what they want to do, and unless they are asking for advice about what to do I assume they have considered the pros and cons of it. Here we have someone asking how to do something, not whether they should or not.

 

[Raffay]

I want to add some perspective to my situation here. I am by nature driven by new hobbies every few years. I think there is so much in this world to experience and so little time. I was into pet parrots and had been enrolled in course called LLP (living and learning with parrots from USA). But when my first daughter was born my wife wanted a camera, so we sold the cockatoo we had and bought a sony cyber shot (you can see my insight in cams at that time). After a few years the camera stopped working and I took it to the shop, there I saw these cameras with zoom lenses, and was fascinated. I finally saved some money for the zoom lens camera but when I went to buy it the camera was sold. The shopkeeper told me to go to another outlet, I went there and the salesman at the shop introduced DSLR concept to me and the sensor thing. To cut the long story shot from a 200 dollar camera I went on to buy a D700 and was amazed by the sensor quality and was enjoying the beautiful pics by that time we had a son so the pics were a lot of fun. But then again we had built our house and the loan was mounting and again my camera had to go.

I could not afford a good camera anytime soon, so one day I was surfing the web and came across the famous Ken Rockwell article on large format. What I learnt from his site that it is possible to shoot better pictures than any DSLR at a fraction of a cost, and that was the start of all this. I made a mistake in the beginning because I did not research much and thought that it would not be possible for me to start with a view camera because I thought it would be too complicated to handle considering I had to learn processing and printing. So I bought the Razzel 900 which is a very good camera and I thought I would upgrade once I have got some understanding of the process and see if it would be possible to process my own film in Pakistan, there were too May things where will I get the film from, the chemicals etc etc. but unfortunately before I could upgrade I lost my job and have been trying to setup my own business since the last two years. Business Is picking up and I am hopeful that I will be able to buy a decent camera soon.

I am not that fixed on a 8x10 but was thinking that if I can get a used good wooden camera with a 4x5 reducing back then I will not have to keep looking For cameras sand start some serious shooting. I keep looking for 4x5 and 8x10 whichever deals comes through first. Hopefully I will be able to raise some money soon and will start the process.

All said, I really appreciate the interest you people take in a situation that does not relate to you. And sorry for the long story, it's just that whatever I do I like to have a deeper understanding of it, otherwise the cyber shot was so easy.

Just to add, I am quite keen on Sinar P for 4x5 but I am not sure how convenient it would be to move around. Like I live in a closed community setup where we all brothers and sisters have houses next to each other and most of the family portraits are in the neighbourhood. Would be possible to carry a Sinar P to another house and set it up without getting comments like what on earth are you trying to do. A folding camera seems to suit this purpose more, but there is no way to try it out here since there are none available. We sister in law owns a cafe and there is a lot of requirement of table top photography and I think a Sinar would be ideal for that. So I guess too May thoughts and not much budget - but I guess I reach there someday.

Cheers

Raffay.


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[ntenny]

Hello Raffay,

Thanks for the additional background. I can only speak for myself but I rather enjoyed reading the full story. I wasn't familiar with the Razzle cameras but they seem like an outstanding idea.

I gather you have working procedures already for processing the 4x5 film, so the step to 8x10 will not be enormous---the larger sheets can be more challenging to handle, and you use more chemistry, of course. If you have process issues still to work out, it'll be easier and cheaper to work on them in the smaller format.

All said, I really appreciate the interest you people take in a situation that does not relate to you.

I think we all recognize the situation of wanting to expand to a new format, even if some aspects of the environment are unfamiliar.

Unless I missed something, you haven't said what you hope to gain from moving to 8x10; is it about contact printing, the ability to use x-ray film...? For formal portrait uses, I think the 8x10 workflow with contact printing is just about perfect. But you do have to find an appropriate lens---pinhole exposures for portraiture are pretty challenging. But if you're finishing in digital, the advantages of 8x10 over 4x5 may not be so large.

-NT

 

[removed account4]

hi raffay

good luck with your search, and dont forget sometimes x ray film is 2 sided ( emulsion on both sides )
so it may load up and kill your fixer prematurely. xray film i had many years ago had a bumpy texture to it, and some have a funky layer you need to remove,
not sure if the ones you plan to use others do or not. are you hoping to make contact prints or skkan the images?

for another trick up your sleeve, you might also consider paper negatives ... photopaper doesn't kill the fix as fast, some have the same or similar looks as xray film
rc papers these days have a long lifespan and are thin compared to fiber paper so they are easy to print through. either way paper prints easy, no funky layer or stipple texture ( well depending on what you use ). and like xray film photo paper is slow and is processed i a safelight.

have fun

john

 

[mwdake]

Edit: I also recall that you were struggling to get enough light for your 4x5 portraits. 8x10 makes it four times (two stops) worse!

Am I misunderstanding this?
If my 4x5 camera needs 1/60 at f11 I would need to use 1/60 at f5.6 on an 8x10 assuming the same lighting?

 

[polyglot]

Am I misunderstanding this?
If my 4x5 camera needs 1/60 at f11 I would need to use 1/60 at f5.6 on an 8x10 assuming the same lighting?

It's not quite that bad.

To get the same DOF on 8x10 as on 4x5, you need to stop down 2 more stops. So if you can hit 1/60 f/11 on 4x5 then you can use exactly the same exposure for your 8x10, but your DOF will be approximately halved because the lens is 2x longer for the same field of view (480mm instead of 240mm, for example). You would need 1/15 f/22 to make the same photo, and suddenly you're in the realm of subject motion.

While f/5.6 plasmats are very cheap and commonly available for 4x5, the affordable lenses for 8x10 are often f/9 process lenses so you maybe can't shoot at f/5.6 even if you wanted to. A 240/5.6 is a reasonable portrait lens to shoot on 4x5, but there is no such thing as a 480/5.6. You can buy a range of 450-480mm lenses around f/9 to f/12.5 but they are either huge and expensive (112mm filters, 2kg+, $thousands) or they have tiny apertures.

As I recall from posts on LFPF, Raffay was having issues with exposures being about 1-2s with his lens wide open, which was causing softness in portraits taken in nice shade. This was my main reason for recommending that he get hold of some artificial light. 8x10 will just make those problems worse, especially if he is forced (for price reasons) to shoot xray film which is about 3 or 4 stops slower than what you can easily achieve with HP5 or TMY2.

 

[mwdake]

Thanks Polyglot for the clarification.
DOF didn't even dawn on me, I was only thinking about exposure.

 

[Raffay]

How would you rate this deal?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350939661275?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2661

After reading all the comments I think it would be wise to get more experience in 4x5 before jumping to 8x10.

Cheers

Raffay


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[Regular Rod]

How would you rate this deal?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350939661275?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2661

After reading all the comments I think it would be wise to get more experience in 4x5 before jumping to 8x10.

Cheers

Raffay


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This would be a far superior outfit, for less money too.

eBay item number: 121231290457

If you want a 4x5 view camera MPP in good condition takes some beating.

RR

 

[Raffay]

This would be a far superior outfit, for less money too.

eBay item number: 121231290457

If you want a 4x5 view camera MPP in good condition takes some beating.

RR

What is MPP?


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[Regular Rod]

An English camera maker, Micro Precision Products, which flourished for a while and made very high quality cameras and other equipment.

There is a healthy user group and just about anything can be obtained or made to keep your camera operational.

Here is the website: http://www.mppusers.com/

RR

 

[Soeren]

How would you rate this deal?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350939661275?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2661

After reading all the comments I think it would be wise to get more experience in 4x5 before jumping to 8x10.

Cheers

Raffay


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You can have a new Chamonix 4X5 for that amount of money and as RR points out there are plenty of cheaper options out there.

http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/45.html

Best regards

 

[polyglot]

How would you rate this deal?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350939661275?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2661

I think it's a very expensive camera that doesn't do a lot, and that you would be mostly paying for the brandname not functionality. That is mostly a collectors' item not a camera for making photos with.

If you want a portable field camera then I would recommend looking at the following features/options:
- it absolutely must have a Graflok back for compatibility with accessories.
- Chamonix 045N2: mostly-wooden field camera, $960 new, $700ish secondhand
- Toyo 45A: folding metal field camera, slightly heavy, very rugged and reliable, about $500 to $700
- Shen Hao HZX45-IIA: wooden folding field camera, $900 new, $600ish secondhand
- Wista 45: wooden. lots of variants $400-$800ish.
- a press camera, like a Speed Graphic. Very cheap ($100 to $300) but quite limited movements. If it's a Speed, it has a rolling shutter and can be used with barrel lenses that have no shutter built-in.

All of the above will be more functional (except the Graphic), easier to use and probably more reliable than the Deardorff. I use a Toyo 45A myself; I can fit the camera, 3 lenses, 6 holders, dark cloth and accessories (spot meter, loupe, etc) in a backpack that's light enough (10kg?) to carry around all day.

More things to consider:
- most important: is it rigid? how good are the locks on it?
- what kind of damage are you likely to inflict? metal cameras dent and jam, wooden ones crack or smash. they are each repairable (or not) from different kinds of damage
- wood is lighter than metal, but do you care? carbon fibre (Toyo 45CF) is even lighter
- metal is often tougher and more rigid than wood - do you care?
- can the camera fold up with a small lens inside it? saves space in the bag
- what is the max bellows extension? This will limit the longest lens you can use and what magnification you can reach with any given lens
- what is the min bellows extension? This will limit the widest lens you can use
- is the bellows interchangeable?
- do you want rear-standard movements?
- maybe you want to buy a rollfilm back to practise with? smaller image area but very cheap to operate.
- do you want a rangefinder?
- is the lensboard a standard size? Toyo and Linhof boards seem to be the most common. Is the lensboard big enough to hold the lenses you want to use?

Sorry, choosing an LF camera is a really hard, and personal decision. There's lots you need to know about how you intend to use it, and there are lots of tradeoffs (complexity, functionality, toughness, weight, price) to make.

You should also read the LFPF roundup of 4x5 field cameras to get an idea of what else is available. And just in case you missed it, the rest of the LFPF front page information is very valuable.

 

[Raffay]

How about getting a Sinar P for 500 dollars?


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[removed account4]

hi raffay

if you are going to use camera for portraits only you don't really need a view camera
with movements like a sinar p.
while a sinar might be a good value ( years ago the same camera sold for much more )
why buy something you don't need ?

you can get away with portraits and landscape ( if that is what you like ) some architectural / site work as well
with something like the mpp, or a different brand press camera. some have a in camera shutter ( speed graphics, besslers )
which allows for barrel, brass, enlarger non-shuttered lenses as well.

i've had a speed graphic for decades, it was my first lf camera, purchased just out of school .. and have used it for everything mentioned above even product-stuff.

in my no so humble opinion, the press cameras are the most useful cameras for non-specialized photography.
if you were doing table-top product photography, or perspective distorted portraits &c i might say go for the sinar, but
the portraits you have posted of your family lean me towards the press cameras.

good luck !
john

 

[Regular Rod]

Hi Raffay,

John is giving you very good advice here.

Local to you I should imagine it would be possible to find usable MPP cameras due to the historic connection between Pakistan and the UK. Has your local police station got one in a cupboard that is no longer used thanks to digital? Could it be bought for a reasonable price. A police or military MPP kit is usually very well equipped with all sorts of useful items as well as the camera. Probably there are several of these languishing in cupboards and drawers waiting for the day someone comes along to appreciate them again and put them to work...

RR

 

[Raffay]

hi john,

when you say in camera shutter, is it the same thing as focal plane shutter? Which MPP or press camera would you recommend if they are one and the same thing. On an another note, I understand that currently with my limited photography experience I might not be posting pictures that even require a LF camera but don't you think it is better to have a camera with ability to manage different scenarios then to have some limitations. I am no expert, but what I have read about the Sinar is that it presents a lot of nice features like geared movements, fine focus and something like yaw-free movements. All these if I understand correctly, makes it a lot more easy to manage the whole LF process. Having said all that, I have to say that my knowledge is limited (i think limited is a very generous word) and would take into account all the experience you guys are sharing before making a purchase - which is not in sight at the moment, but hopefully soon

cheers
raffay

 

[Raffay]

hello all,

one more thing to all the people who have participated in this thread, in one of longer posts above I wanted to know if anyone could tell me if setting up a Sinar P an easy exercise or would it make my family members kill me. I tried to search for youtube videos but did not get anything except for a couple of chinese (not because they were chinese) movies which were not very good. If any of you have a sonar and put up a video, I guess it would be great for all who want to know Sinar better. Or if you can provide any good links.

cheers
raffay

 

[Wayne]

Some excellent points here but why do you think X-ray film is 3-4 stops slower than HP5? Most people seem to shoot HP5 at 200 (I do, after testing) and most people seem to get about 100 out of Fuji HR-T (which I have only shot a couple exposures at 100, but not actually tested yet).

It's not quite that bad.

To get the same DOF on 8x10 as on 4x5, you need to stop down 2 more stops. So if you can hit 1/60 f/11 on 4x5 then you can use exactly the same exposure for your 8x10, but your DOF will be approximately halved because the lens is 2x longer for the same field of view (480mm instead of 240mm, for example). You would need 1/15 f/22 to make the same photo, and suddenly you're in the realm of subject motion.

While f/5.6 plasmats are very cheap and commonly available for 4x5, the affordable lenses for 8x10 are often f/9 process lenses so you maybe can't shoot at f/5.6 even if you wanted to. A 240/5.6 is a reasonable portrait lens to shoot on 4x5, but there is no such thing as a 480/5.6. You can buy a range of 450-480mm lenses around f/9 to f/12.5 but they are either huge and expensive (112mm filters, 2kg+, $thousands) or they have tiny apertures.

As I recall from posts on LFPF, Raffay was having issues with exposures being about 1-2s with his lens wide open, which was causing softness in portraits taken in nice shade. This was my main reason for recommending that he get hold of some artificial light. 8x10 will just make those problems worse, especially if he is forced (for price reasons) to shoot xray film which is about 3 or 4 stops slower than what you can easily achieve with HP5 or TMY2.

 

[removed account4]

yep the in camera shutter is a focal plane shutter. i am not as familiar with the mpp cameras as folks from the UK so i can't really comment on that particular brand
but the graflex speed graphic is the one with a focal plane shutter ( crown graphic does not have one ). some of the pre-anniversary models also have focal plane shutters
( also graflex ). i wouldn't worry about the quality of the photographs you have posted most people use a large format camera photograph rocks and trees,
anything lends itself to largeformat, its just getting to the basics

i haven't used a sinar set up, although a sales guy tried to sell someone i worked for one back in the day. yaw free, geared movements &c were all selling points he used, kind of like TOYO cameras ( toyos are similar, modular professional cameras for less $$ ) .
all that extra "stuff" is great if you are doing things you need to control perspective but if you don't need all those extra doo-dads its is just fluff, and something that will eventually get in your way .. and using a monorail camera to make portraits can sometimes be a pain, much easier learning the whole dance with a simpler camera

... its like using a ferrari when you are learning how to drive, sometimes all that flash and elegance and speed gets lost when the driver is learning how to drive a standard transmission bucking his / her way to the corner market.


i hope i didn't dissuade you too much, that sinar is a nice camera probably worth what they are asking ...
don't forget no matter which one you settle on, you will need
to get a sturdy tripod, light meter, film holders, and a dark cloth ( cheap i use felt ) ... and a way to process all your exposures

have fun !

john

 

[Regular Rod]

Raffay you might enjoy watching this video of a young man using the same camera that I mentioned earlier, the MPP Mk VIII, to make hand-held photographs of an event... Unfortunately the video does not feature the finished results!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Pl0Pa7UTpuo#t=3

RR