New Motion Picture film: Eastman Kodak VERITA 200D Color Negative Film 5206/7206

[bfilm]

It's certainly not EXACTLY portra 400. Cinema film is physically thicker (and less prone to curling) than standard CN film and the verita matches this. Of course they could paint the portra chemical emulsion onto the thicker film base.

Thickness-wise, this is true now for 35mm color negative film.

Cinema film and regular 35mm still film from Kodak are both on 0.135mm base. I did confirm this with my calipers, both films are approximately 0.16mm thick, including emulsion.

Not anymore. The current 35mm photography color negative films from Kodak are on 0.10 mm polyester base (or at least that is what the data sheets say). Personally, I hate the polyester film base and much prefer the traditional cellulose acetate film base.

I think 35mm Ektachrome E100 is still on acetate base, and I have some hope that maybe it will stay this way, as perhaps it shares coating production with the motion picture Ektachrome 100D, before then going to their respective finishing.

 

[MCB18]

Not anymore. The current 35mm photography color negative films from Kodak are on 0.10 mm polyester base (or at least that is what the data sheets say). Personally, I hate the polyester film base and much prefer the traditional cellulose acetate film base.

I think 35mm Ektachrome E100 is still on acetate base, and I have some hope that maybe it will stay this way, as perhaps it shares coating production with the motion picture Ektachrome 100D, before then going to their respective finishing.

Could you please link the source of this data? I know that Kodak has been trying to transition some of its films to PET due to them not wanting to buy acetate from Agfa, but all of the most recent data sheets that I can find on Google, assuming they mention the base at all, list the 135 formats of film as being on 0.13mm acetate.

 

[MattKing]

See the Tech Pub links you will find if you drill down on each film found here on the Kodak Alaris website: https://www.kodakprofessional.com/photographers/film/color

There are no datasheets on the Eastman Kodak site for the equivalent Ektacolor films.

 

[MCB18]

See the Tech Pub links you will find if you drill down on each film found here on the Kodak Alaris website: https://www.kodakprofessional.com/photographers/film/color

There are no datasheets on the Eastman Kodak site for the equivalent Ektacolor films.

That is extremely odd that these publications have not replaced the ones that come up on Google, the latest ones I can find with a simple search are from 2016. But, sure enough, all films listed are on 0.1mm PET, which I’m sure some people are thrilled about.

 

[bfilm]

There are no datasheets on the Eastman Kodak site for the equivalent Ektacolor films.

There seems to be no way to contact Eastman Kodak about the photography films. Which is very frustrating. The website points you towards a phone number, that is a generic number the leads you through many recordings, eventually to give you a generic email that returns as no longer in use.

So, I had a lab communicate with their contact at Eastman Kodak, and they didn't seem to get very much definite information from them either. But they did say that they were told that Eastman Kodak does not plan to issue new data sheets any time soon, and that the Kodak Alaris data sheets "will remain the go-to data sheets". And considering how inconsistent these are, that is also frustrating.

 

[bfilm]

I am glad that Eastman Kodak is still making photography film, but I find it very frustrating that there is a lack of any points of contact, detailed information about the film stocks, or supporting literature.

It seems that without a predominant professional community, they no longer feel the need to supply these things like they still do for the motion picture film.

 

[MattKing]

As I understand it, the process of preparing those datasheets to the standard that Eastman Kodak demands of themselves for their motion picture film offerings is time and resource intensive and requires that a lot of money be spent.
It is probably hard to convince the money people in EK to divert the resources to that task, given how restrictive they are about devoting any of their scarce capital to the photographic portion of EK's business.
When they offloaded the still film business to Kodak Alaris as a means to survive, the responsibility for datasheets went with it. This newest version of the Kodak branded still film distribution and marketing universe is a relatively new thing, and it may have been thrust upon EK, rather than being a matter of choice, so it may be that things are still being worked out between them and Kodak Alaris.

 

[bfilm]

As I understand it, the process of preparing those datasheets to the standard that Eastman Kodak demands of themselves for their motion picture film offerings is time and resource intensive and requires that a lot of money be spent.
It is probably hard to convince the money people in EK to divert the resources to that task, given how restrictive they are about devoting any of their scarce capital to the photographic portion of EK's business.
When they offloaded the still film business to Kodak Alaris as a means to survive, the responsibility for datasheets went with it. This newest version of the Kodak branded still film distribution and marketing universe is a relatively new thing, and it may have been thrust upon EK, rather than being a matter of choice, so it may be that things are still being worked out between them and Kodak Alaris.

It seems to me that everything that goes into a data sheet would already have been figured out and prepared in the development, testing, and production of the film. It doesn't seem very complex or expensive to then put it into a PDF file.

 

[MattKing]

It seems to me that everything that goes into a data sheet would already have been figured out and prepared in the development, testing, and production of the film. It doesn't seem very complex or expensive to then put it into a PDF file.

That isn't how it actually works. The design goals are one thing - often driven by what is necessary to respond to the constant changes in availability of constituent components and other external factors.
Datasheets are the result of voluminous real world testing. The resources for that are few and far between.
Nevertheless, the old datasheets for Portra, T-Max and Tri-X films are probably decently reliable substitutes.

 

[gbroadbridge]

It seems to me that everything that goes into a data sheet would already have been figured out and prepared in the development, testing, and production of the film. It doesn't seem very complex or expensive to then put it into a PDF file.

Perhaps you've not worked for a large multinational in technical document preparation.

When I worked for GVG/Disney the release of a single technical document required sign off by so many people and business units it was indeed very time consuming and expensive.

 

[bfilm]

That isn't how it actually works. The design goals are one thing - often driven by what is necessary to respond to the constant changes in availability of constituent components and other external factors.
Datasheets are the result of voluminous real world testing. The resources for that are few and far between.

Perhaps you've not worked for a large multinational in technical document preparation.

When I worked for GVG/Disney the release of a single technical document required sign off by so many people and business units it was indeed very time consuming and expensive.

I guarantee Eastman Kodak already has the information for data sheets. Sure, it involves testing, but that will have been done before they release a film.

Heck, Harman manages to provide data sheets even for limited edition experimental films.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I guarantee Eastman Kodak already has the information for data sheets. Sure, it involves testing, but that will have been done before they release a film.

Heck, Harman manages to provide data sheets even for limited edition experimental films.

I understand that, however it would need review by legal, marketing, and risk before development/production documentation could be published.

 

[bfilm]

I understand that, however it would need review by legal, marketing, and risk before development/production documentation could be published.

Maybe so, but then they should do it. Like they do for motion picture film, and like they used to do for photography film.

As I've mentioned, I am glad they are still making photography film. But at the same time, it seems ridiculous to release a film, that surely they have all the relevant details on through its production, and call it "professional" and then provide no information to customers about it.

Maybe they are just in a transition time, but I certainly hope they don't make this vague and opaque way permanent.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Maybe so, but then they should do it. Like they do for motion picture film, and like they used to do for photography film.

As I've mentioned, I am glad they are still making photography film. But at the same time, it seems ridiculous to release a film, that surely they have all the relevant details on through its production, and call it "professional" and then provide no information to customers about it.

Maybe they are just in a transition time, but I certainly hope they don't make this vague and opaque way permanent.

I think that if the current photographic film resurgence isn't just an anomaly driven by nostalgia, they will evenually get back into the full swing.

That's a big if.

 

[MCB18]

For anyone that is thinking of getting Kodak Verita 5206/200D, there is a supposed eBay listing selling it, be aware that it is probably fake. The label on the can is not consistent with what Verita currently comes in, and is also not consistent with what it will come in when the new labels are rolled out. Looking at the image, it seems like there is obvious photo manipulation. The seller has also never sold anything else related to photography, and only has 11 feedback.. Do not buy this film, it is most likely a scam.
ebay item 236788160282

 

[blee1996]

Reflx Labs has 320D and 640T AHU cine film in stock, from 135 to 120. Is Verita 320D a completely different color palette?

 

[MCB18]

Reflx Labs has 320D and 640T AHU cine film in stock, from 135 to 120. Is Verita 320D a completely different color palette?

Reflx lab only has AHU in 35 mm, 65 mm has yet to be made with AHU as far as I’m aware. Any cinema film they sell in 120 is normal is normal ECN-2.

Verita 200D does look different than other motion picture films, it may or may not just be portra 400, we don’t know for sure yet.

 

[brbo]

Is Verita 320D a completely different color palette?

There is no Verita 320D.

 

[originalwinslow]

Reflx Labs has 320D and 640T AHU cine film in stock, from 135 to 120. Is Verita 320D a completely different color palette?

AHU is just normal Vision 3 without remjet. Verita is a separate cine stock.

I think there is a decent probability that verita is not simply repackaged portra 400. If that were true then it would also mean portra stock can be reliably developed in ECN-2 with no erroneous color shifts and achieve professional results. I've done it, but the colors were (expectedly) not analogous. I think it's fair to assume kodak would tune the emulsion for processing in the designated developer, rather than just rate it a stop lower for correct density using CD-3 and call it good.

Another question to consider is whether portra was originally designed with vision cinema film technology and adjusted for C-41, or is it the other way around? Chicken or the egg.

I'll run some verita through C-41 and see what happens.

 

[thinkbrown]

I think there is a decent probability that verita is not simply repackaged portra 400. If that were true then it would also mean portra stock can be reliably developed in ECN-2 with no erroneous color shifts and achieve professional results.

I mean, they've essentially said that there are color shifts in the datasheet:

Post-Production
KODAK VERITA 200D is intended for a digital post-
production workflow.
The initial scans from images captured with this stock will
be less neutral in the highlights, which tend to shift toward
magenta. This can be adjusted in color grading and is due
to this stocks' alternative linear response in higher
densities – a signature characteristic, which also provides
rich depth and warmth to a range of flesh tones.

 

[originalwinslow]

I mean, they've essentially said that there are color shifts in the datasheet:

Touché, however isn't reduced saturation in skin tones one of the desirable characteristics of portra? Not necessarily a "rich depth and warmth?" Round and around we go.

 

[thinkbrown]

Touché, however isn't reduced saturation in skin tones one of the desirable characteristics of portra? Not necessarily a "rich depth and warmth?" Round and around we go.

Kodak has lied to all of us and it's actually just bulk rolls of Gold 200

 

[Lachlan Young]

AHU is just normal Vision 3 without remjet. Verita is a separate cine stock.

I think there is a decent probability that verita is not simply repackaged portra 400. If that were true then it would also mean portra stock can be reliably developed in ECN-2 with no erroneous color shifts and achieve professional results. I've done it, but the colors were (expectedly) not analogous. I think it's fair to assume kodak would tune the emulsion for processing in the designated developer, rather than just rate it a stop lower for correct density using CD-3 and call it good.

Another question to consider is whether portra was originally designed with vision cinema film technology and adjusted for C-41, or is it the other way around? Chicken or the egg.

I'll run some verita through C-41 and see what happens.

There's also a real possibility that it started from taking the Portra emulsion set and dispersing CD-3 rather than CD-4 couplers into it, then taking it through the rest of the making procedure.

The Vision technology, from my understanding, relates to more fundamental aspects than just 'adjusted for C-41', so you need to build the product incorporating the techniques & layered dye etc. In other words, their relationship is one of technology sharing.

 

[BurntOutElectronics]

Touché, however isn't reduced saturation in skin tones one of the desirable characteristics of portra? Not necessarily a "rich depth and warmth?" Round and around we go.

CD-4 makes broader hues with couplers than narrower ones achieved with CD-3.
As-is CD-4 are less stable due to the stronger polar properties. There is an actual twisting action that takes place and that doesn't occur with CD-3 so different hues being produced and other chemical differences would very likely account for the cross overs Kodak mentions, and remember, it just has to have more apparent saturation than vision!
Rich depth could very well just be referring to the fact that Verita/Portra has less dynamic range than Vision stocks.

 

[koraks]

CD-4 makes broader hues with couplers than narrower ones achieved with CD-3.

I didn't know about that; where can I read more about this? I'd be interested.

Btw, the issue with a C41 stock cross-processed in ECN2 (which is what the Verita 200D product would be) is not only one of different dye hue. This in itself would not induce the crossover that's referred to as 'magenta highlights' (without crossover, the shadows would be equally magenta and everything would fall into place with a simple constant adjustment across the tonal range). The crossover effect is likely due to other factors, like different pH of the color developer, and different development time + temperature, which will affect the relative rate at which the different emulsion layers develop. So I'd expect that the 'other chemical factors' that you refer to are more significant here.