Ziess Biotar 58mm 2.0: unbelievable lack of contrast

ersambuca · Jan 26, 2022

Hello everyone,

I have bought a Ziess Biotar 58mm 2.0 a while ago. I gave back the camera to repair the same day after noticing some fungus on it. While they fix it, the shop gives me the russian copy of the Biotar, the Helios 44-2. So I take some shots with it and I immediately notice a huge lack of contrast on the images. Whites aren't whites and blacks arent blacks. I post few photos of the scanned film with no post production.

I immediately blame the russian copy of the lens, so when I get my Biotar back, I can't wait to see how it performs.
I am even more disappointed than before, here are 2 shots:

I still can't accept such a huge lack of contrast and I feel there must be something wrong. So I wait for a proper sunny day to take some more shots, this time I compare the Biotar with my Canon 24mm 2.8.

The first two is the canon. the second two is the Biotar.

The difference is huge.

Not to mentions some shots I took inside with the same roll, again with the biotar:

So the comparison with the 24mm shows an umbelievable difference. The biotar has several stops less of dynamic range than the 24mm. To get a decente image out of the biotar I must pump up heavily the blacks and the whites to get a decent "histogram". Not to mention the shots taken insade: no way to use them.

What do you people thinks? Looking at photos of other people, also raw files, it never occured to me that the Biotar has this weakness, I found on the internet no thread about a supposed lack of contrast of this lens, which is supposed to be actually really good!

What are you thoughts?

Paul Howell · Jan 26, 2022

In the early 70s while in Air Force photo tech school I won a Exacta at a poker game, came with the 58 F2, it was low contrast, but not as low contrast as your example, frankly don't understand why the Russian Copy is so poor. Overall the Biotar was a pretty good lens, as sharp as my Pentax or Konica or the Air Forces Nikon and Leica, just somewhat lower contrast.

Disappointed_Horse · Jan 26, 2022

If I had to guess a lens-based caused to this lack of contrast, I'd guess that there is some haze in this copy of the lens from lubricants braking down over time. Have you tried shining a bright light through the lens and looking at the inside of it to diagnose the problem?

btaylor · Jan 26, 2022

The images look extremely underexposed to me. Perhaps the aperture is not operating correctly or mis-calibrated in some way. Also, look through the lens off the camera to see if there is any haze or fungus.

Dali · Jan 26, 2022

Do you know how works a preset lens like the Helios44-2?

btaylor · Jan 27, 2022

I think I had one of those on my old East German Contax SLR. As Dali said it was not an automatic diaphragm lens.

ersambuca · Jan 27, 2022

Dali said:
Do you know how works a preset lens like the Helios44-2?

What do you mean?

I guess your talking about the second ring that fixes the minimum aperture. I don't see why or how that could be an answer to my problem. If you use that feature wrong, I reckon the only thing that could happen is that your photos get overexposed because for instance your preset ring is fixed to f8 while you wanted to shoot at 16f. But still, you would notice that your aperture ring doesn't turn further than a fixed value...

I never really found usefull this feature, so my preset ring is fixed to f22 so that I am free to space from max to min aperture.

At first when I read your comment, I must admit, I thought for a minute that maybe all my photos where underexposed because all shot somehow all at f22! As if the lens switched back to the preset aperture when shooting. But it is not that way, right? I even checked right now the blades, taking some film-free shot, and they don't close to f22 when shooting, so my doubt is gone....

but please tell me more of what you think

ersambuca · Jan 27, 2022

btaylor said:
The images look extremely underexposed to me. Perhaps the aperture is not operating correctly or mis-calibrated in some way. Also, look through the lens off the camera to see if there is any haze or fungus.

I thought so at first. But then how to explain that the 24mm looks good on the same camera on the same day on the same light?

Check the histograms

Buzz-01 · Jan 27, 2022

Dali said:
Do you know how works a preset lens like the Helios44-2?

ersambuca said:
What do you mean?

Important question!
You should meter stopped-down, otherwise your photos will definitely end up underexposed.
So focus wide open, manually stop down the lens and meter the scene, then take the photo.

What do your negatives look like when you compare the Canon's negative with the Helios negative?
When underexposed they look quite "thin", e.g. you can see through them very easily.
IMO histograms only tell half the story, as this is the scanner's interpretation of the negative.
You can use Lightroom or Photoshop to "stretch" the histogram to look like a well exposed image, but the actual photo might still look terrible.

When in good condition and used correctly, the Helios is a very good perfomer with plenty contrast:

ersambuca · Jan 27, 2022

Buzz-01 said:
Important question!
You should meter stopped-down, otherwise your photos will definitely end up underexposed.
So focus wide open, manually stop down the lens and meter the scene, then take the photo.

What do your negatives look like when you compare the Canon's negative with the Helios negative?
When underexposed they look quite "thin", e.g. you can see through them very easily.
IMO histograms only tell half the story, as this is the scanner's interpretation of the negative.
You can use Lightroom or Photoshop to "stretch" the histogram to look like a well exposed image, but the actual photo might still look terrible.

When in good condition and used correctly, the Helios is a very good perfomer with plenty contrast:

Ok , thanks for your comment. well let's see. First I would focus on the Zeiss if possible, not on the Helios.. I know their are supposed to be the same but maybe not totally..?

So First my preset ring is fixed on f22, right? So I can space through the whole aperture range (I really don't understand how that feature can be useful).

Then I set the aperture wide open on 2.0 and I focus. Then, always wide open I meter, maybe this is the mistake? When I meter wide open, of course at a selected shutter speed, let's say that the meter points me f8.0., so I stepped down to 8.0 and I take my shot.
Is this wrong? Is there something I am missing?

ruilourosa · Jan 27, 2022

I suppose you did not use the same camera...
Negatives seem grossly underexposed

Richard Man · Jan 27, 2022

Underexposed. Focus, close down, meter, click

hashtagquack · Jan 27, 2022

ersambuca said:
What do you mean?

I guess your talking about the second ring that fixes the minimum aperture. I don't see why or how that could be an answer to my problem. If you use that feature wrong, I reckon the only thing that could happen is that your photos get overexposed because for instance your preset ring is fixed to f8 while you wanted to shoot at 16f. But still, you would notice that your aperture ring doesn't turn further than a fixed value...

I never really found usefull this feature, so my preset ring is fixed to f22 so that I am free to space from max to min aperture.

At first when I read your comment, I must admit, I thought for a minute that maybe all my photos where underexposed because all shot somehow all at f22! As if the lens switched back to the preset aperture when shooting. But it is not that way, right? I even checked right now the blades, taking some film-free shot, and they don't close to f22 when shooting, so my doubt is gone....

but please tell me more of what you think

It is useful in that it allows you to focus wide open and then stop down to a pre determined aperture for the shot. As you say though, if this is used incorrectly it would result in over exposure.

ersambuca · Jan 27, 2022

Guys, I don't understand.

Is it wrong to meter wide open and then step down to the suggested aperture (given a a certain shutter speed)?

Buzz-01 · Jan 27, 2022

ersambuca said:
Guys, I don't understand.

Is it wrong to meter wide open and then step down to the suggested aperture (given a a certain shutter speed)?

Yes, as this will underexpose your images.

Say you meter at f/2 and the result is e.g. 1/250sec shutter speed, that equivalents to EV = 10 (@ ISO 100).
Now you stop down to f/8 and take your photo at 1/250sec shutter speed, that equivalents to EV = 14 (@ ISO 100).
Meaning your photo will be 4 stops underexposed if you meter at f/2 and then shoot at f/8.

You should always meter at the aperture you're going to use to take the photo.
Modern cameras and lenses will do this automatically for you (the lens tells the camera which aperture you've chosen, camera will usually meter wide open and then compensate exposure automatically for you), but with the Helios this must be done manually.
But also with automatic lenses adapted to modern cameras this can sometimes be an issue.
For example when using my Zuiko lenses on my Olympus OM cameras they will automatically meter correctly, but when the same Zuiko lenses are adapted to my Canon (d)SLR, I must manually stop down before metering.

ersambuca · Jan 27, 2022

Buzz-01 said:
Yes, as this will underexpose your images.

Say you meter at f/2 and the result is e.g. 1/250sec shutter speed, that equivalents to EV = 10 (@ ISO 100).
Now you stop down to f/8 and take your photo at 1/250sec shutter speed, that equivalents to EV = 14 (@ ISO 100).
Meaning your photo will be 4 stops underexposed if you meter at f/2 and then shoot at f/8.

You should always meter at the aperture you're going to use to take the photo.
Modern cameras and lenses will do this automatically for you (the lens tells the camera which aperture you've chosen, camera will usually meter wide open and then compensate exposure automatically for you), but with the Helios this must be done manually.
But also with automatic lenses adapted to modern cameras this can sometimes be an issue.
For example when using my Zuiko lenses on my Olympus OM cameras they will automatically meter correctly, but when the same Zuiko lenses are adapted to my Canon (d)SLR, I must manually stop down before metering.

Thank for you answer but I don't understand your explanation.

Let's say I select 1/125 shutter speed, and then, wide open at f2, I meter. The meter then points me 8.0. Doesn't it mean that f8 is then the right aperture to have a good exposure?

On the contrary, if I want to shot at 8.0: after focusing, I close she shutter to f8, I meter, and I adjust the shutter speed till the exposimeter points f8.

What is wrong with it?

Plus. Like the situation isn't already complicated enough, my photo seller I bought the Biotar from, now says that with my camera Canon AE1 it's impossible to trust the meter of the camera (for reason I didn't get to understand) so I can only shoot with an external meter.

I am going crazy.

Bill Burk · Jan 27, 2022

It looks from the histogram that you may have underdeveloped.
Is it possible you used an old roll of film that might have fog. Maybe you didn’t want to be wasteful.
If so, try again on one roll of film half shot with one lens and half shot with the other.

This was taken with the same lens, although when it was brand new:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/two-mule-deer-big-bear-zoo-1975.38608/

Nicholas Lindan · Jan 27, 2022

It can be hard to see what is going on from scans (or prints).

Could you place the problem negatives on a light table/box along with a strip of properly exposed/unfogged negatives and take a picture of the whole thing in one shot. It doesn't have to be a particularly good shot, just something to let folks see the difference between your problem negatives and your good negatives.

Buzz-01 · Jan 27, 2022

ersambuca said:
Thank for you answer but I don't understand your explanation.

Let's say I select 1/125 shutter speed, and then, wide open at f2, I meter. The meter then points me 8.0. Doesn't it mean that f8 is then the right aperture to have a good exposure?

On the contrary, if I want to shot at 8.0: after focusing, I close she shutter to f8, I meter, and I adjust the shutter speed till the exposimeter points f8.

What is wrong with it?

Plus. Like the situation isn't already complicated enough, my photo seller I bought the Biotar from, now says that with my camera Canon AE1 it's impossible to trust the meter of the camera (for reason I didn't get to understand) so I can only shoot with an external meter.

I am going crazy.

Ah ok, your confusion makes more sense to me now. You shoot in shutter priority mode, where you set your shutter speed and then get an aperture suggested after metering.
In the case of using a genuine FD mount lens it would be perfectly fine like you do. Meter wide open and then go to the suggested aperture.
However, your Helios or Biotar is almost certainly connected via an adapter, and in this case the camera has no way of knowing what aperture the lens is set to, or what its widest aperture is, in order to adjust its meter reading automatically.
Chances are that it suggest a totally wrong aperture because of incorrect assumptions inside the camera.
Possibly this is what the store owner was talking about when saying the internal meter cannot be used.

I've never used the AE-1 myself so I cannot tell you whether or how you can meter stopped down with that camera. Others might be able to help you out with that.
But if you own a smartphone, I'd suggest to use a smartphone light meter app and meter the scene with your phone. Then select those settings on your camera and take the shot.
This way you omit the camera's internal meter completely and should get fairly accurate exposures.

gone · Jan 27, 2022

I'm w/ btaylor, the film looks under exposed. It's possible to get what you're getting from a lens w/ haze, but I've never seen it. You have looked through the lens w/ a strong light source at the other end, right?

Bill Burk · Jan 27, 2022

btaylor and Buzz-01 bring up valid points.

If you are using a “through the lens” meter it may assume the lens is coupled when it’s not.

Can you show us pictures of your camera and the steps you take to meter and how you stop-down to the taking-aperture?

cramej · Jan 27, 2022

ersambuca said:
What do you mean?

I guess your talking about the second ring that fixes the minimum aperture. I don't see why or how that could be an answer to my problem. If you use that feature wrong, I reckon the only thing that could happen is that your photos get overexposed because for instance your preset ring is fixed to f8 while you wanted to shoot at 16f. But still, you would notice that your aperture ring doesn't turn further than a fixed value...

I never really found usefull this feature, so my preset ring is fixed to f22 so that I am free to space from max to min aperture.

At first when I read your comment, I must admit, I thought for a minute that maybe all my photos where underexposed because all shot somehow all at f22! As if the lens switched back to the preset aperture when shooting. But it is not that way, right? I even checked right now the blades, taking some film-free shot, and they don't close to f22 when shooting, so my doubt is gone....

but please tell me more of what you think

The images look severely underexposed.

Preset lenses work like so:

Set aperture ring to desired aperture.
Focus with the preset ring to "open"
Switch preset ring to "closed" to stop down the aperture.
Take picture.

If your aperture ring is set to f22, then it is closing down to f22 when you "close" the preset ring. The reason these lenses are called preset is because they don't have an automatically closing aperture that would stop down when you release the shutter. When you meter with the lens wide open and the camera tells you at whatever shutter speed, the aperture should be f8, then you move the aperture ring on the lens to f8. Set the preset ring to "closed" and take the picture.

AgX · Jan 27, 2022

The Canon AE-1 yields stop-down metering.

Thus either meter in this mode actually at the intended aperture, or wide open, but then re-calculating the resulting shutter time for that intended aperture.

Ian Grant · Jan 27, 2022

I have a 58mm f2 Biotar and the contrast is excellent, yours may well just need cleaning. I have a 28mm f2.5 Tamron Adaptall II lens when I bought it the contrast was fine, after a few years I noticed the contrast had dropped, last year I wanted to use it on my Spotmatic F and found it was unusable. It's not fungus, it's been stored well, it requires taking apart and the glass either side of the aperture blades cleaning, it's caused by the lubricants, happens with some Leitz lenses.

The coatings on the Biotar are far better than the Helios-44 lenses, I compared them as I have both in perfect optical condition, there's slight flare in extreme conditions with the Helios but not the Biotar.

Ian

Marcelo Paniagua · Jan 27, 2022

Agree with everyone else. Not contrast issue but underexposed. Alway meter stopped down and don't use aperture priority witn lenst that don't have a lens connection to the camera. You can always meter (not aperture priority) with the camera full open and then close the required steps. Adjust speed on doing that.

Ziess Biotar 58mm 2.0: unbelievable lack of contrast

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