Zeiss Ikon "Coffee Can" TLR - information and a few questions

[mooseontheloose]

I've always been interested in unusual or beautifully designed cameras, especially TLRs, and the Zeiss Ikon Ikoflex coffee can has been on my list for some time. Over the years I found it hard to find one that was in working condition, with a decent (but not collectable) appearance, and that wasn't too expensive. But, a few weeks ago I was lucky in finally finding one and it arrived yesterday. Everything looks good, the glass is clean, the shutter speeds sound accurate, I've downloaded the manual, and it just need to give it a quick clean before going out later today and testing it.

However, I've noticed that it's hard to find any good, detailed information about the camera. The same 2 or 3 information sites get mentioned on Google and various websites/blogs but it tends to repeat itself. For example, this site and this site shows two examples of the camera: the 850/16 version 1 and version 2. If you look at the taking lens, they both say "IKOFLEX ZEISS IKON" or "ZEISS IKON IKOFLEX". A slightly different version can be seen here. More information about the Ikoflex can be found here. In any event, none of these cameras are the camera that I got, which looks like this:

As you can see, around the taking lens it just says "Zeiss Ikon" in a script font, with no "Ikoflex" mentioned. It's a 80mm Novar 4.5 lens with a Compur-Rapid Shutter. It has a much wider range of speeds than listed for other versions - T, B, 1, 2, 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 300, and 500. However, if I want to use a shutter speed higher than 10 or 25, I have to press a little lever in order to move the ring to the higher speeds. In any event, this particular version shows up in google image searches, but not on any specific site that talks about the cameras. I'm assuming it's a later model? Does anyone know? The serial number is the the 4,000,000 range, which does not match up with other numbers I have found.

These cameras did have some accessories - a yellow filter, close-up filters, and a lens hood. I don't really care about the filters as I can handhold one in front of the lens if needed, but the lens hood would be particularly useful I think. I haven't been able to find any, which I guess is not unusual, but if anyone knows of where I might get one, that would be great. The lens is quite small - about 25mm, and there is no filter thread. Would a lens hood that fit the other Ikoflex models fit?

Finally, these cameras can take both 120 and 620 film, and the there are two film counters - one on each side of the camera - for the various sizes. The manual talks about metal and wooden film spools - would I be correct in assuming the wooden spools refer to 620 film and the metal ones to 120 film? Based on the history of these film sizes, that's what makes sense to me, but it's not clear in the manual (just assumed I guess).

Anyway, I'd appreciate any information people have about this camera.

 

[NedL]

I've never really thought about getting a TLR but that thing looks really cool! And I couldn't resist a "coffee can" TLR ( I have a thing about coffee can pinhole cameras... )
Amazing it has such high shutter speeds. Anyway, no help from me ( all my 620 spools are metal ) but I hope you have a lot of fun with it and make some great pictures.

 

[mooseontheloose]

I hope so too! This is my second Art Deco camera, the first being the nickel plated Rolleicord I (just a year or two older than this one I think). I'm also interested in the fact that in this camera the film moves horizontally, unlike most other TLRs where the film moves vertically. The only other TLR camera that does so is the Voigtlander Superb, another camera I'm interested in (but it's definitely much pricier).

 

[summicron1]

early 120 spools were made of wood with metal ends, later all-metal, still later plastic.

620 spools are always metal because they came too late for the wooden phase and are too skinny for plastic to hold up.

Why do they call it a coffee-can camera? Folgers never came in something that looks like that -- which, I hasten to add, is very cool.

I would have to see the back, but I bet it has multiple windows to allow use of film that only has backing paper showing 8 exposures -- so you use 1 in the top window, then in the bottom window, then 2 in the middle window, or something like that.

It may also have a single window in the center for rolls with 12 numbers. I've got a camera that has this transitional configuration, a Balda. Here's a shot of the back ... look familiar?

Better practice with a sacrifice roll before using.

 

[MattKing]

The manual talks about metal and wooden film spools - would I be correct in assuming the wooden spools refer to 620 film and the metal ones to 120 film? Based on the history of these film sizes, that's what makes sense to me, but it's not clear in the manual (just assumed I guess).

I would guess that it would be the other way around, because the centre section of the metal 620 spools I have are skinnier than the 120 spools I have.

 

[mooseontheloose]

early 120 spools were made of wood with metal ends, later all-metal, still later plastic.

620 spools are always metal because they are too skinny for plastic to hold up.

Why do they call it a coffee-can camera? Folgers never came in something that looks like that -- which, I hasten to add, is very cool.

Thanks! It's called a coffee can because apparently it reminded people of German army trench coffee cans (cups?) during WWI. I've tried doing a google search for them, but the only thing I have found that is even remotely possible is this: click. I'm guessing that the handle of the mess kit is what they are thinking of.

 

[shutterfinger]

What are the lens serial numbers?
A Lens Collectors Vade Mecum shows Zeiss East Germany 4000000 as 1955; Zeiss West Germany 1965.
Compur Rapid shutters with a top speed of 1/300 are late 1930's to early 1940's; the next advance was the top speed 1/500 then with flash sync then the Synchro Compur.
The shutter should have a serial number but may have to be removed from the camera to see it.


From the Vade:
Ikoflex
This Zeiss Ikon TLR was sold initially with Novar f3.5/75mm and Tessar f3.5/75mm lenses. These were Tcoated
lenses, but some of the Tessars were from Jena (ie not Opton!), and in the second model, from about
1949, the Zeiss Opton Tessar from Oberkochen accompanied the Novar T. These were initially in Zeiss's own
Prontor shutters, but they were upgraded to Compur Rapid in the early 1950's, as supplies were available.



Edit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_format shows that 620 film was introduced in 1932.

 

[AgX]

What are the lens serial numbers?
A Lens Collectors Vade Mecum shows Zeiss East Germany 4000000 as 1955; Zeiss West Germany 1965.

Post-1945 no TLRs were made in East-Germany.

 

[choiliefan]

Your coffee can has a much nicer shutter than the Derval with speeds of 1/25, 1/50, 1/100 and B only on mine. Lens is a Novar 80mm 4.5.

The serial number is stamped on the back of the main camera body casing and becomes visible when the film chamber assembly is removed. In my case the camera is a model II with body serial number Y15813.

Does your camera have the Mayan temple stepped WLF? if so, your's is a model I. This is the feature which caps of the art deco look.
Somewhere on the web is information giving approximate year of manufacture using the numerical prefix of the body serial number.

 

[mooseontheloose]

Your coffee can has a much nicer shutter than the Derval with speeds of 1/25, 1/50, 1/100 and B only on mine. Lens is a Novar 80mm 4.5.
The serial number is stamped on the back of the main camera body casing and becomes visible when the film chamber assembly is removed. In my case the camera is a model II with body serial number Y15813.
Does your camera have the Mayan temple stepped WLF? if so, your's is a model I. This is the feature which caps of the art deco look.
Somewhere on the web is information giving approximate year of manufacture using the numerical prefix of the body serial number.

Thanks! I found the number (I think): Y38075 (the last two numbers are a bit iffy, but I think they are 7 and 5). It's a much higher number than yours, and that, combined with the greater range of speeds, makes me think it's a later model that no one seems to know much about (It also does not have the classic stepped WLF - I am still keeping an eye out for one those!). Maybe it was created for a different market? Special edition? I wish I knew German, I have a feeling I would maybe be able to find more information about it. It's too bad it doesn't have the same brand loyalty that the Rolleiflex has - with lots of websites and forums telling you everything you need to know about every model, every serial number, every variation...

 

[mooseontheloose]

So I shot two rolls late this afternoon but I probably won't get a chance to develop them as I am off to Tokyo and Fukushima for a few days. Loading seems straightforward, but the counters on either side seem to start at "6" rather than "1" once I snap the camera back together. So for the first roll I followed the numbers in the red window, but only got to 8 before I ran out. Clearly the window is for 6x9 counters, but why wouldn't they put it at 6x6 counters if it was designed to be a 6x6 camera? Were 6x6 markings not put on roll films at that time? Anyway, for the second roll I just counted the number of times I needed to crack the winding lever before it got to the next number on the counter (3x) so did that for the rest of the roll. Hopefully it turns out. Clearly this won't ever be my main user, but it seems like a fun camera to get to know.

 

[mooseontheloose]

One more question - what would be the best way to get my f/stop numbers to be lighter and easier to read? If you look at the photo I posted, you can see the numbers right below the taking lens - clearly whatever paint was there has mostly rubbed off over the years. I'd like to find a way to lighten them up without ruining the aesthetics of the camera.

 

[JPD]

One more question - what would be the best way to get my f/stop numbers to be lighter and easier to read? If you look at the photo I posted, you can see the numbers right below the taking lens - clearly whatever paint was there has mostly rubbed off over the years. I'd like to find a way to lighten them up without ruining the aesthetics of the camera.

Clean the numbers with alcohol and fill them in with oil pastel (the crayon type), or try using acrylic paint tihiined with water - brush on and wipe off the excess paint.

 

[shutterfinger]

What is the View Lens serial number?

Classic Zeiss Jena serial numbers:
400,000's 1921-1923
4,000,000's mid 1950's.
1929 shown as the change to Compur Rim set shutters, about serial number 97,091. The Compur Rapid is a rim set shutter.,
125,883 1st Contax lens, 1931.
1,890,000 switch to chrome finish, 1936.
Compur Shutter Serial numbers: http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Compur_serial_numbers
A 4,000,000 Compur shutter serial number will fall in late 1936 to early 1937 which sounds period correct for the camera.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

What a beautiful art deco camera that is!

 

[choiliefan]

Hey Moose...
Further research finds that Z-I body serial numbers with the Y prefix are from 1933-34 which jibes with the serial your Compur shutter.

 

[Peltigera]

The Y serial numbers are 1934-35. The lens has no serial number that I can see - it is a Novar so any serial number will not be a Carl Zeiss number. If the quoted 4,000,000 serial number is the shutter serial number, that dates from 1935 to 39. Zeiss Ikon made bodies in batches which they used up over considerable time - the Ikoflexes were not a major seller so the body casting could have been in stock for a year or more. Zeiss Ikon also bought shutters in bulk and the same applies - the shutter might be made 12-18 months before it got used.

 

[Peltigera]

Finally, these cameras can take both 120 and 620 film, and the there are two film counters - one on each side of the camera - for the various sizes. The manual talks about metal and wooden film spools - would I be correct in assuming the wooden spools refer to 620 film and the metal ones to 120 film? Based on the history of these film sizes, that's what makes sense to me, but it's not clear in the manual (just assumed I guess).

Anyway, I'd appreciate any information people have about this camera.

620 film uses a much thinner spool than 120 film - that was the whole reason for the new format as it allowed smaller cameras. The wooden spools will be older and thicker than 620 spools. 120 spools can be found in wood, metal and plastic.

 

[mooseontheloose]

Thanks Peltigera! The 4,000,000 number is on the side if the lens, not visible in the picture. I’m currently out of town, so can’t post it. All signs point towards the fact that it was it was made in the mid-30s, I just wish I could information about this particular one - it’s not the versions I or II that get written about.

 

[Pioneer]

Everything about your cameras suggests the version II but Lawrence Gubas book on Zeiss and Photography does not even show a front shutter of the style seen in your photograph. The book does mention a model called the 850/16CR that came equipped with the Compur Rapid shutter but it doesn't provide any information other than that. It does mention that the only place that the Ikoflex name is found is on the shutter face. Even the Zeiss Ikon script is different. All the examples I have seen of the Ikoflex coffee can TLR have block letters on the shutter. Yours is in cursive. Just speculating but perhaps your shutter actually comes from a different Zeiss Ikon camera and was mounted as a replacement sometime after it left the factory?

 

[shutterfinger]

it is a Novar so any serial number will not be a Carl Zeiss numbe

The first mention of Novar in the Vade Mecum under Zeiss name is post WWII.
Searching the index for Novar produces this list: Novar Huttig http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Hüttig ; Novar Zeiss Ikon; Novar Zeiss (CZJ)
A name missing is ICA http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/ICA , the merger of several German camera companies that later became Zeiss Icon.

 

[choiliefan]

Tubb's book "Zeiss-Ikon Cameras 1926-39" lists the Ikoflex I with a choice between:
Novar 6.3 Derval shutter
Novar 4.5 Derval shutter
Novar 4.5 Klio shutter
Novar 4.5 Compur Rapid shutter
Your camera was the most expensive at 10.2.6 pounds
The f6.3 was priced at 6.12.6 pounds

Book doesn't specify between type 1 or 2 but type 1 has the Mayan stepped WLF.

Incidentally, this is a nicely done and informative Hove book from 1977 which details the offerings
of Contessa-Nettel, Ernemann, Goerz, Ica and Zeiss-Ikon before and after the merger..

 

[Peltigera]

Tubb's book "Zeiss-Ikon Cameras 1926-39"

Incidentally, this is a nicely done and informative Hove book from 1977 which details the offerings
of Contessa-Nettel, Ernemann, Goerz, Ica and Zeiss-Ikon before and after the merger..

With quite a few omissions and a number of mistakes. It IS a useful book - I have one and do use it - but don't take it as gospel.

 

[choiliefan]

How about Simon Worsley?
Where does he stand among the pantheon of Z-I scholars?

 

[Peltigera]

How about Simon Worsley?
Where does he stand among the pantheon of Z-I scholars?

Fairly high. It is Simon that has produced the useful dating of ZI serial number prefixes. Very useful.