XTOL + TMX = sucky.

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It may be more accurate to say that the problem is that NB23 doesn't like the look of TMAX 100 in XTOL - which he is perfectly entitled to do - but that the result of the combo is "dullness overkill", which description people are perfectly entitled to disagree with.

And more than that - of course people are triggered to voice their disagreement if the OP voices his dislike not only in absolutes, but also effectively refuses to specify his issue more - the crux being why he doesn't just print it down to get the blacks he desires. This behaviour reeks of stirring the pot for the sake of it.
My own little tidbit of experience: grain is small, but well visible on my 12x16 prints from TMX in Fomadon Excel (which is supposed to be near identical to Xtol) 1:2 and blacks are just a matter of exposure time under the enlarger. My issue with the film is the glossy emulsion side, which can give Newton rings, and the price. And I'll agree with the OP in generally preferring just a little more grain for 35mm stuff.
 
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jnamia

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Thanks Sal. Yes, it all boils down to "There's no accounting for taste."

that's right, some people just don't have taste. whatever ... some rail on and on about digital and how it ruined the medium of photography yet they want all their film images look digital, it's a bit of hypocrisy, others love digital image-making and love what modern film does, which is fine too, really don't care either way, I just stated a fact that really isn't up for debate that modern film, tabular grained films tend to look highly resolved, accurate, sharp, without grain (not my words ) and digital. Im not a film purist, I find it kind of hilarious that someone would call me that seeing I couldn't' care less what film I shoot, I just pick something out of a bin and shoot it, and oh yea I was called a film hater too at one point, I make my own photo emulsion, now that's HATE!. Whatever .. it has nothing to do with purism or taste it just is what it is .. and unfortunately there are always people who try to turn a blind eye to reality so they just call people purists or haters or ludicrous and now someone without taste .. same old BS
 

Helge

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What saves him is, that he is an absolutely fantastic photographer.
“Who cares if they are prima donnas, as long as they can sing?”.
 

DREW WILEY

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Dullness, flatness??? Sounds like underdevelopment. TMax films are especially capable of contrast expansion. Underexposure results in blacked-out shadows, not lack of contrast per se. Two different issues.

I still don't know what is meant by TMax having a "digital look". These are highly versatile films capable of all kinds of looks. Likewise, digital capture is its own tool kit capable of many various things, though it can't bag anywhere near as long a brightness scale in a single capture.
 
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grat

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Likewise, digital capture is its own tool kit capable of many various things, though it can't bag anywhere near as long a brightness scale in a single capture.

I'm curious-- what is the practical dynamic range of film such as TMX? I'm not referring to torture tests where people try +15 stops of overexposure to prove the film can still retain detail, but for a real world scene, how much range can TMX handle?

10 stops of range on digital has become commonplace, 12 isn't unusual, and 14 isn't unheard of.
 

Sirius Glass

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I'm curious-- what is the practical dynamic range of film such as TMX? I'm not referring to torture tests where people try +15 stops of overexposure to prove the film can still retain detail, but for a real world scene, how much range can TMX handle?

10 stops of range on digital has become commonplace, 12 isn't unusual, and 14 isn't unheard of.

The last line you posted at best.
 

jnamia

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I'm curious-- what is the practical dynamic range of film such as TMX? I'm not referring to torture tests where people try +15 stops of overexposure to prove the film can still retain detail, but for a real world scene, how much range can TMX handle?

10 stops of range on digital has become commonplace, 12 isn't unusual, and 14 isn't unheard of.

I've read 32 stops, unless its in xtol then it has a 3 note range like Lou Reed
as "chrome film" (TMAX Reversal KIT ). maybe 7
 

Mr Bill

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I'm curious-- what is the practical dynamic range of film such as TMX? I'm not referring to torture tests where people try +15 stops of overexposure to prove the film can still retain detail, but for a real world scene, how much range can TMX handle?

Well, what do you call practical? My personal work experience has been, by far, mostly with Kodak professional color negative portrait films. These have had, for many years, a very "substantial" latitude for overexposure. But what range is "practical?"

The outfit where I worked owned and operated a couple thousand portrait studios in the US and Canada. They were all set up with more or less standard lighting and exposure configurations. But... with that many locations, and enough employees to staff those studios, well... "rare" screw-ups were seen on a regular basis. Maybe on a monthly basis one studio, somewhere, would shoot a half-week's worth of portraits without their lens being stopped down. The resulting film would be about 4 or 5 full stops overexposed.

So what would be the result? Well, for the most part, neither the customer nor the studio people would notice any difference. But in the processing lab these negatives would take near ten times longer exposure times. So none the lab people wanna get stuck printing those rolls - they get bored of the longer exposures. And it drastically slows down the printer production rate - not as much as you might think, but probably by half, or so. A printer that could normally expose maybe a thousand 8x10s per hour is down to perhaps four hundred per hour.

So it works, but we didn't see it as practical. Another note, these films had a comfortable underexposure latitude of a stop or so, depending on the subject matter. So the exposure latitude was somewhere around 6 full stops or so. This would be with a typical subject luminance range (as printed) of around 8 or 9 stops. Meaning that the entire usable "luminance recording range" of these films was around 14 to 15 full stops. But is this a "practical" range? No.

Obviously your question was about a b&w film, not color, but maybe this will help put things in perspective. People would generally consider the pro b&w films to have a greater exposure latitude than color neg, but I've never actually done the tests.

I should put a slight disclaimer on the color neg results. These are with specific professional color neg films, used under studio flash. This is the "correct" color balance for these films, meaning that the three primary color layers are exposed in a proper balance with each other. If you were to expose under a different "color temperature" light part of the exposure latitude would be used up by the exposure offset between the film's color layers. So the usable latitude is reduced. One other thing should be said... these results were done in cine processors where agitation and developer volumes are not an issue. I'm pretty sure that Jobo users would not be able to match these results, largely because of sparse development - not enough developer to handle 5 stops of overexposure.
 

awty

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Surprised it took you this long to find out. I came to similar conclusion early on, so stopped using either.
Hp5 does just about everything good and when not there's d3200 and fp4.
D76 is a good all round developer.
Anyway now to get back to taking pictures, perhaps you could include something pretty occasionally to brighten things up.....maybe sunsets and kittens:wink:
 

Bill Burk

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I just made a print from HP5+ in D-76 1:1 developed to 0.62 (ISO) contrast index where the shot was taken on an overcast day at the beach. I have 2 stops greater exposure than necessary according to density of key shadows compared to how much less exposure could have been given while still staying on the straight line of the curve.

I could’ve used Grade 4 to print but wanted to print on Galerie which I only have up to Grade 3 (so that’s what I used).

Shadow density 0.68 and highlight density (sky) 1.49

I printed 88 seconds f/2.8 (with an 0.60 ND filter - didn’t need but too lazy to take out). Dodged some of the sky 2/3 of a stop with a skinny dodger to keep them from going gray because they would have with the main print exposure.

This is a good film and developer combination for beach scenery. But I would prefer finer grain, the print simulates a gray day at the beach nicely but feels like I dropped the camera in the sand. It’s gritty.
 

Bill Burk

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HP5+ has too much grain for my liking, for nature photography in 35mm. I feel like I printed my beach scene through a "grain" texture screen.

Like NB23, all the choices I made in the past are behind me. What's done is done and this discussion relates to choices for the future.

I love grain but I want grain to be so close to the natural subject that it can be confused for real detail.

So I have Panatomic-X and TMAX100 for the times when I want the best.

But I want something faster. Faster than TMAX100 which I know is exactly 100. I am not comfortable pushing it.

TMY2 at 250 is too grainy (in 35mm). Now I find HP5+ at 100 is too grainy. They are perfectly fine films... I just want something fast and fine-grained.

My best guess is that I will be happiest with Double-X at 250 (effectively 125 with a Yellow filter) as my fast film in 35mm and Panatomic-X at 32 (effectively 16 with a Yellow filter) as a slow film.

I'm stubborn about developer, it's going to be D-76 1:1

But TMAX100 at 100 without a yellow filter has a lot to recommend it.
 
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HP5+ has too much grain for my liking, for nature photography in 35mm. I feel like I printed my beach scene through a "grain" texture screen.

Like NB23, all the choices I made in the past are behind me. What's done is done and this discussion relates to choices for the future.

I love grain but I want grain to be so close to the natural subject that it can be confused for real detail.

So I have Panatomic-X and TMAX100 for the times when I want the best.

But I want something faster. Faster than TMAX100 which I know is exactly 100. I am not comfortable pushing it.

TMY2 at 250 is too grainy (in 35mm). Now I find HP5+ at 100 is too grainy. They are perfectly fine films... I just want something fast and fine-grained.

My best guess is that I will be happiest with Double-X at 250 (effectively 125 with a Yellow filter) as my fast film in 35mm and Panatomic-X at 32 (effectively 16 with a Yellow filter) as a slow film.

I'm stubborn about developer, it's going to be D-76 1:1

But TMAX100 at 100 without a yellow filter has a lot to recommend it.

Are you sure that XX has finer grain than TMY-2? I haven't used XX but it seems unlikely to me. TMY-2 has grain of about the same magnitude as FP4+.
 
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TMY + XTOL, now that's a much more interesting combo.

To be honest, I always found that TMX was a tool rather than a pictorial film. It's got this very linear response, so you need to work hard to bend the curve to your liking. This can actually be an advantage for some photographers, depending on workflows.

Wouldn't a flat response be good for scanning when you can add a curve to it in editing?
 
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Here's what happened: Xtol gets TMX about 1/2 stop faster & shoulders quite a bit earlier compared to D-76. Thus if you're a bit generous exposure-wise with TMX in D-76, you'll be mostly OK, still on the straight line & you won't get into a fight with the paper curve - however Xtol kicks your shadow speed up & with a bit too generous exposure to begin with, you've gone far enough up the curve to have compressed your highlights enough that getting them to print well is going to be a pain. This is what you are seeing (BTDT with Delta 3200). The other emulsions you name don't have the same early shouldering in Xtol. So, as I said, it's an exposure question, not a fundamental flaw - and the effect helps to stop people with process control problems completely screwing up their highlight density & then whining about that.

One of the labs I use developes with XTOL. So when I shoot Tmax 100 and Tmax 400, what considerations should I make? I scan the film afterward so printing will be done that way.
 

Bill Burk

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Are you sure that XX has finer grain than TMY-2? I haven't used XX but it seems unlikely to me. TMY-2 has grain of about the same magnitude as FP4+.

I don’t know. Still experimenting… I know that I want something with an ISO faster than TMAX100. And I want the grain to be finer than TMY2
 
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I don’t know. Still experimenting… I know that I want something with an ISO faster than TMAX100. And I want the grain to be finer than TMY2

Bill, XX has a higher rms granularity than Tri-X, (17 vs. 16 IIRC, could be wrong) which is why I like it. I am not one for small grain. Your best bet for faster film with the smallest grain is going to be either TMax 400 or Delta 400.
 

Bill Burk

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Bill, XX has a higher rms granularity than Tri-X, (17 vs. 16 IIRC, could be wrong) which is why I like it. I am not one for small grain. Your best bet for faster film with the smallest grain is going to be either TMax 400 or Delta 400.

I’d seen a post saying Double-X RMS granularity is 14 and Tri-X 17

Now if TMY2 matches Plus-X which was said to be 10, and “noticeable difference is about 2. Then Double X is “two noticeable differences grainier than TMY2 .” And that means you are right and I am barking up the wrong tree.

Wish the RMS numbers were easier to find. Has anyone created an amateur test I could try?
 
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Bill Obviously grain is affected by film size and final enlargement size of the print. What camera are you shooting with? Also, I assume you're using a tripod so you could use slower film like Tmax 100?
 

Bill Burk

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Bill Obviously grain is affected by film size and final enlargement size of the print. What camera are you shooting with? Also, I assume you're using a tripod so you could use slower film like Tmax 100?

Right, I always evaluate a finished 11x14 print. For 120 and 4x5 I get what I want with TMY2 and the faster speed is helpful. No searching there. But I did try the 120 Double-X when it came out.

For 35mm this is where I’m always looking for better “something”. Panatomic-X is benchmark and I can make TMAX100 work. Yes I will use tripod whenever practical.

A TMAX200 would please me greatly or maybe, 160 ISO with RMS 8.
 
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DREW WILEY

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TMY-2 has finer grain than ole Plus-X did; but due to the higher contrast and edge acutance, the grain might look more defined. All depends on the developer. It's even finer than FP4. When I do shoot 35mm, it's likely to be TMY400. I never worry about grain in 35mm work; and print that small anyway. The best cure for annoying grain is shooting larger format to begin with. But once I'm into something like 6x7 or 6X9 roll film format, I'm aiming for prints that might land in the same portfolio as those enlarged from 4x5 or 8x10 film; so ironically, that's when I get more concerned about achieving finer grain combined with high acutance, so turn to TMX100, Acros, formerly Efke 25, and if the scene contrast is mild enough, sometimes Pan F.
 

Radost

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XTOL gives me the sharpest, contrastiest results with TMX film.
 
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NB23

NB23

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Yes it’s crazy. You know, they say that all your dreams can come true if you put the effort.
Well, me, instead of putting the effort in owning a Yacht I have put all my efforts into printing my whole damn body of work ever since I started shooting more than 30 years ago.

Idiotic, I totally agree. No Yacht, but a pile of shit.

(Body of work = all my favorites)
 
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Lachlan Young

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One of the labs I use developes with XTOL. So when I shoot Tmax 100 and Tmax 400, what considerations should I make? I scan the film afterward so printing will be done that way.

Don't give in to the temptation to overdo the exposure by a considerable safety margin.
 

Lachlan Young

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Wish the RMS numbers were easier to find. Has anyone created an amateur test I could try?

They're in the Kodak data sheets.

Testing RMS Granularity requires proper lab-grade kit (which essentially automates it) and procedures - it could be done, but it's really not going to be readily achievable at amateur darkroom level of equipment/ variables. The microdensitometer will be the least of your problems.
 
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