What's the learning curve like for wet plate?

[Donald Qualls]

I've seen a number of videos recently, in which tintype (wet plate collodion) was demonstrated, from cleaning the working surface of the plate, to pouring, sensitizing, mounting in the holder, exposing, then developing, fixing, and washing.

Clearly, there's a level of physical skill involved in being able to pour the plate well and quickly, handle it efficiently, etc. as well as a body of knowledge in terms of having the right dilution with the right solvents for the collodion, the right salts in the collodion, the right sensitizer strength, the right developer and fixer, etc. I've seen some of the results from people learning the process, too -- frilling, lifting, fingerprints, unevenness, and so forth.

Sure, I'd need to take a portable darkroom with me if I go into the mountains with wet plate -- but it's remarkable what a modified bicycle will carry and on how primitive a path (look at old photos of the Ho Chi Minh trail bicycles), and I've seen some pretty compact and seemingly lightweight wet plate setups (I've read that wet plate was actually done in balloon baskets in the 1860s).

My question is, roughly how long (months, and exposures) does it take to develop the level of skill where you can depend on your process to make images, rather than just learn the process? Is it years, and hundreds of plates, or is it closer to weeks and dozens? It surely seems this would be within reach if the latter, and almost certain to make ULF less costly than it is with factory-coated film.

 

[removedacct1]

For me it was a few weeks of persistent, meticulous work, and maybe 20-30 plates, and I was well on my way.

This 8x10 plate was probably about the 25th piece I'd done: https://live.staticflickr.com/4530/37838549734_f10d476d3b_h.jpg

 

[Donald Qualls]

Well, that doesn't seem that bad. Especially since I need almost no additional equipment (already have a couple 4x5 cameras and a bunch of film holders -- and only need to convert one holder). Bottles and trays aren't hard to come by, I can build a traveling darkbox -- and I pick up new skills quickly, as long as they don't involve electronics.

I'm asking now because I'm quickly approaching the age when I'll have the choice to start collecting my Social Security, and have to decide what level of "poorer" I can live with to get back 50+ hours of spare time a week. Buying a beat-up 8x10 to fix up seems possible, and lenses without shutters are still almost reasonable -- but 8x10 film cost means I'd wind up shooting nothing but X-ray. Having the skill already in hand for wet plate would expand my horizons for things like event portraiture, giving the ability to offer something that isn't often seen while producing a product in hand on the spot.

 

[removedacct1]

Donald, have you acquired quality learning materials yet? If possible, do a workshop with someone. If that’s not practical, get a good manual.
John Coffer’s guide is very good (but quirky and informal), and Quinn Jacobson’s 2019 edition of Chemical Pictures is excellent too. Both include video tutorials.

 

[Arthurwg]

There's also Mark Osterman's "The West Plate Process; A working Guide," published by Scully & Osterman, Rochester, NY, 2002.

My observation is that the most challenging part of the process, other than mastering the coating of the plate, is calculating exposure times while considering the strength of the collodian mixture. An excellent kit of wet plate supplies can be had from Bostick & Sullivan, Santa Fe NM.

 

[Donald Qualls]

@paulbarden No, I haven't done anything other than think about it yet. At my present level of spare time, I'd be years learning what would take mere weeks if I were retired (not least that being able to expose and develop just a couple plates a week while materials age would severely compromise learning which factor is responsible for what change -- like learning to fly with one lesson a week vs. one every other month, one way takes a year, the other takes a lifetime). I might find a way to quit working for someone else within the next couple years, however, vs. working until I'm past 70; if so, starting wet plate is likely to be nearly immediate. Attending workshops is likely to be out for budget reasons, but I'm largely an autodidact in any case. I have a long history of figuring out stuff even the tech support I'm working with couldn't solve, so videos and books are likely to cover the bases.

 

[Peter Schrager]

@paulbarden No, I haven't done anything other than think about it yet. At my present level of spare time, I'd be years learning what would take mere weeks if I were retired (not least that being able to expose and develop just a couple plates a week while materials age would severely compromise learning which factor is responsible for what change -- like learning to fly with one lesson a week vs. one every other month, one way takes a year, the other takes a lifetime). I might find a way to quit working for someone else within the next couple years, however, vs. working until I'm past 70; if so, starting wet plate is likely to be nearly immediate. Attending workshops is likely to be out for budget reasons, but I'm largely an autodidact in any case. I have a long history of figuring out stuff even the tech support I'm working with couldn't solve, so videos and books are likely to cover the bases.

Donald you are so wrong...manuals cds etc aren't going to teach you what you can learn in a weekend from someone who knows their stuff
all the books aren't that cheap either besides you could actually have some FUN and meet some other amazing people
I used to have an aversion for workshops but there isn't one that I ever regretted going to...

 

[removedacct1]

True, Peter, but of course, attending a workshop at this stage in things is going to be difficult/unlikely.

 

[Donald Qualls]

The biggest issue, for me, is attending a workshop when I have so little spare time. I'd have to take my vacation to do it (which is a fine use of PTO, don't get me wrong), and then there's the cost factor. From what I've seen, workshops are the real "bar to entry" here. I already have most of the equipment I'd need, modifying a film holder is almost trivial (power drill, coping saw or hacksaw, file, glue). It's not hard (if a little costly) to order enough glass from Schott to get a custom cut, or alternatively fairly easy to get the black coated aluminum trophy engraving plate that seems common for "modern" tintype (and that stuff cuts nicely with a woodworking band saw and fine tooth blade, or a metal shop's shear). But in addition to driving for days from North Carolina to someplace like Montana or Oregon, and the same back -- even if TSA and I got along better, at least one way I'd be carrying stuff that's a no-no for air travel -- those workshops aren't cheap. I can probably buy everything I need and don't already have for the cost of four or five boxes of budget 4x5 film -- collodion, silver nitrate, chemicals for the developer, raw plates -- but a single workshop (from the little I've seen) will cost five times that, plus travel costs (roadside motels aren't ten bucks a night any more, haven't been in decades).

 

[Peter Schrager]

Actually I was about to do a wet plate workshop in West Virginia in September...not far from north Carolina
Check out penumbra in NYC
George Eastman house in Rochester..mark osterman taught everyone!
I learned how to make colloidal chloride prints there
Money is not always the factor in life
Donald you are in no way wrong and I wish you !!all the best in your journey...!!

 

[Donald Qualls]

If I know about it long enough in advance, a workshop in West Virginia might be within possibility (don't forget to bring six bucks cash each way for the tolls in the pass). New York City is probably out -- I can't even afford lunch in the City. Rochester is another story -- that's one long day's drive (I can make Chicago or Mobile, Alabama from here in a day, if I start early).

The problem with money is that it's less important the more of it you have...

 

[radiant]

I have been interested in wet plates too. Based on looking youtube videos it doesn't seem to be difficult.

Then I bumped to a finnish wet plate artist who was doing commercial portraits in one event month ago. I saw many plates being done from start to finish and it looked as simple as I had seen in youtube. I had a long chat with this guy at local bar and I asked him that if I order chemicals from him, would I succeed without a course? He said yes and continued that there isn't any really difficult parts with pre-mixed chemicals.

I think the problematic parts are if you are doing chemistry by your own; mixing collodion or servicing your silver bath etc. If one buys pre-made chemicals then it isn't difficult.

Difficult things for me is to operate large format camera to get good framing and good focusing. If shooting inside or in low light environments then the "ISO" of the wet plate comes problematic; it needs so much light that one ends probably shooting with aperture wide open (which makes focusing quite challenging) and exposure times are long. The power needed by flashes is crazy and even with large setup you have to aim the strobe light correctly. Model moves a bit -> part of the model is black.

I have practiced large format with paper positives and negative film and I think that alone is so heavy work that I don't know really if I want to add wet plate to the equation

 

[Donald Qualls]

I've done large format for a while -- not a huge number of negatives, but the technical side isn't anything I find difficult. Maybe it's from reading The Camera a half dozen times before I started high school, but movements and the general process of large format just make sense to me. Honestly, from the videos I've seen, it doesn't look as if wet plate adds a huge workload to the process of large format, and it makes the cost of the camera itself the only real bar to ULF -- 8x10 and larger. Glass and aluminum are cheap, collodion isn't terrible, silver nitrate isn't cheap but I've bought it in the past for salt prints and the like; it's not out of reach.

I find mixing my own chemicals easy, too. I've made multiple different developers from scratch, used no fixer other than home-mixed for several years, even mixed and successfully used a C-41 developer for a while.

 

[RogerHyam]

If you are wet-plate curious you have to have a go or you will never forgive yourself! I don't mean at a workshop I mean try and master it for yourself.

As for how long? It is a bit like playing the saxophone. You'll be playing Happy Birthday within a week but becoming the next Coltrane may take longer.

I taught my self just by reading and watching YouTube. Then I did a one day workshop and got some extra tips. I can make wet-plates and do basic trouble shooting if need be but I'm not any good at it. If you are practically minded and patient it isn't complex.

Portable wet-plate is entirely different. I spent ages trying to make the equipment smaller so I could maybe get it in a backpack. It is possible but not pleasurable. I shifted to making gelatine dry plates so I could still have an artisanal input but move away from the road.

For wet-plate in the field you need a vehicle or a horse. Historically people had pack animals and assistants and even then they switched to dry plate as soon as they were invented.

Borut Peterlin does great work in the field but he has a 4x4 and crazy amount of energy.

The path is made by walking. You will never really know about it till you do it. To do it well it probably has to become a vocation.

 

[Donald Qualls]

If you're doing 35mm wet plate, I think you could probably put the whole kit in a briefcase (plus the camera case itself).

But yes, Borut is a madman. He has a good dog, though.

I need to start with one simple step: I need to get or make a plate holder that fits my 4x5 cameras. I looked over the pictoriographica site and didn't see anything there.

Of course, I've got a dozen glass plate holders for my Ideal plate cameras, but they're front-loaded, won't work well for wet plates.

 

[RogerHyam]

You are right. A plate holder is probably the one thing you don't have if you do normal large format. You don't even need a silver tank as you can use a tray to start off.

I don't think there is anything wrong with front loading a wet-plate. I use normal glass plate holders like this for 4x5 and half plate. I think most people working 4x5 do this.



They come up on eBay in the UK pretty often so in the US it should be more often.

I hacked up my worst film holder so it would back load a 1/4 plate size piece of glass. Like this. The piece of aluminium acts as a loose spring but you can use some sponge. The corners are off cuts from the septum held on to what remains of the septum with CS (super) glue. Note the corrosion. This is probably the easiest/quickest way to get up and running.



I did the a similar thing with a sketchy 8x10 holder. This plate holder cost me about £30 rather than nearly £300 for a Chamonix wet-plate holder which would do essentially the same job. I've only used it for dry plate though.



Note that I've written "Back" on the back of both the hacked holders. Before I did this I had that lovely sensation of hearing the plate fall forward into the camera when I removed the dark slide because I'd put the holder in the wrong way around. On both occasions the sitter said "Is something wrong?" The look on my face must have said it all!

Your problem with the pre-war holders may be that you can't get a substrate thin enough. I think they were built for very thin glass or film. Today you can only really get 2mm picture frame glass. In fact I have to alter the MPP holders slightly or they won't take 2 dry plates (one in either side). I had to file the rivets down by about 1mm each side. They were fine for wet-plate though.

My other recommendation is to not be too precious at first. If you make a mistake just clean the plate off and use it again. Chances are you will watch your collodion go off rather than use it up. The silver bath can just be filtered and refreshed with a couple of grams of silver nitrate after each session. Once you are up and running the process is actually pretty cheap to do. You could have an afternoon of failed picture making and it would cost less than a disappointing trip to Star Bucks.

Get a nice clean special bottle to keep the silver bath in. Keep it well away from eyes (it can blind you). Cleanliness is important, especially around the silver bath.

I never got varnishing to work. When I came to terms with this and finished my plates with Renaissance Wax instead I was much happier.

I definitely got a sense of euphoria from my first plate

http://www.hyam.net/blog/archives/3856

Enjoy it.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Actually, my main problem with the plate-camera type holders is that the plate has to be handled from the front (collodion) side to latch it into the holder and unlatch it to get it out. The front-loaders you show in your first photo are like a common Graphic film holder, but instead of a permanently installed film sheath (like my Riteway holders have), it's got the slot the film sheath would go into.

My Ideal plate holders, by contrast, actually load from the front -- the plate is dropped in, and a spring latch pulled back to go over the edge of the plate. I think it would use 1/16 glass -- I'm confident J. Lane plates will work in them -- but they might be 2mm.

I've been safely handling eye hazard chemicals since about 1970, took chemistry in both high school and college, have handled silver nitrate, potassium dichromate, potassium hydroxide, and 30% sulfuric acid in my darkroom work. I'm also the only one in my shop at work who wears eye protection all the time.

Are you sure that sense of euphoria wasn't from the ether?

 

[MattKing]

At a Northwest Alternative Photography Symposium in Bellevue Washington a few years ago one of the presenters was Meghann Gilligan, who converted an old traveling trailer into a wetplate darkroom. She did business at the time under the name The Tin Gypsy.
She did an excellent group demonstration, including taking a group portrait.
There are demonstrations like that around - they are worth looking for.
By the way, Transition type glasses are opaque to UV

 

[Donald Qualls]

By the way, Transition type glasses are opaque to UV

Transition glasses? You mean like the Lanthanum glass in a Voigtlander Lanthar, or the thorium glass in a number of post-WWII top-end lenses like my Super Takumar 50/1.4? -- Oh, the penny just dropped. Transitions photochromic eyeglasses. I don't have those, but my regular eyeglasses (and most eyeglasses, now, since lifetime UV exposure has been known to be the primary factor in development of cataracts) are coated for 100% UV absorption.

Also, don't put a UV filter on your lens when exposing wet plate or J. Lane original plates, or you'll wonder why your plate speed is 1/10 what it should be...

 

[MattKing]

And don't use T-Max 100 if you want to apply the negative toward one of the UV based alternative processes - the built in UV blocker will distress you.
T-Max 400 doesn't have that blocker.

 

[36cm2]

I have several books and have taken a live course with France Scully Osterman. France and Mark are both just awesome and the course is certainly well worth the travel and expense and then some. That said, if it’s a stretch for you in terms of logistics, there is no reason you cant start out with the books. Of the ones I’ve read, I think that Chris James’ Alternative Photographic processes gives a great basic overview (certainly enough to get started), Quinn’s book gives the best comprehensive straightforward coverage, and the Osterman manual offers additional nuance (important nuance in some cases) that you may not notice at first, but that becomes more and more apparent to you as you begin to advance and really understand what’s going on chemically. Hope this helps. The process can be fickle, but i find it fascinating.

 

[radiant]

Borut Peterlin is a good example of a situation where someone wants to really do the art and is willing to go through brick wall. He ain't got a fancy mobile darkroom, just a patched tent in middle of forest. And he is doing ultra large plates. In a forest. In a tent. I mean he is the ultimate crazyness of wet plate.

I'm going to probably try wet plates next summer when there is enough light, but I'm not totally sure yet

 

[radiant]

.. one story from my first real life wet plate experience.

The wet plate guy was using a badly ventilated darkroom for the work. There was REALLY thick smell of ether and lavender oil inside. It felt really bad to walk inside, took few moments to get used to the fumes And he did the heating of warnish over oil candle. When he was lightning the candle I thought that if we don't blow up now, there is no way it could happen elsewhere.

The guy was only doing 4x5" plates, so I can just imagine what the smell is like on ultra large format plates..

But the fumes, oh man. I was bicycling later back home and about after 2km I suddenly noticed the smell. It was so real that I thought for a moment that how in the earth the same smell is here too, outside, far away from the darkroom

 

[awty]

My modified 4x5 plate holders are the sprung type and work both with glass and tin. I use a screw driver to lever into place and remove.

I bought all the bits a few months ago, but didn't have enough time to get the process sorted. It is too hot now, so will try again next year. Be far better prepared next time.
To make any progress into this process requires a lot of time. Im like you can not afford the time away from work to do a course, not going to happen. Think its still possible to get good results by doing it yourself and asking for help from forums.
Good luck.

 

[removed account4]

Hi Donald

You might consider a poke around Bostick and Sullivan's website. See if they still have a "starter kit" for wet plate doers . They used to ... and it included a large box camera (like a #3 Brownie &c ) that had the film gate painted over. it wasn't a huge investment to get your feet wet and it might offer your some insights about the process.