Photography is usually lumped in the graphic arts, I found out.See synonyms for: fine art / fine arts
noun
a visual art considered to have been created primarily for aesthetic purposes and judged for its beauty and meaningfulness, specifically, painting, sculpture, drawing, watercolor, graphics, and architecture.
They left out photography, probably to avoid discussions like this, LOL
Tell that to Van Gogh.Luis, I have never met Art so I do not know what kind if person he or she is.
I do know there are fine wines, fine double shotguns, fine dining and fine paintings and of course fine photography. I also know "Fine Art" cannot be easily defined.
Two summers ago I was in and art gallery with a large collection of the "Hudson Valley School" paintings of the valley and surrounding county side. They were exquisite examples of 19th century brush on canvas art. As I ventured into the next gallery a few folk were practically cooing over the work of some impressionist art. These paintings were to me, simply line strokes on paper. If the tittle did not tell you it was "a horse in the field" my first impression was it showed an Indy race car winning the final lap. Still both forms of "Art" had equal stature at the gallery.
So I have to stick with my definition of "Fine Art", it is product that sells and is held in high esteem in its intended market place.
Using that definition, I'd say "fine art" can also be fitted into "art for art's sake" - i.e. artwork created to have no practical application, merely to provoke an aesthetic response. This is distinct from "applied arts" such as architecture, industrial design, or even closer to the gray area between "fine art" and "applied art", ceramics like tea kettles or serving plates. The portion of photography that falls under "fine art" is the portion like landscapes and nudes that serve no other purpose than aesthetic. Photojournalism, while it can be aesthetic, exists primarily to communicate information about events, and advertising/commercial photography is the same except it conveys information about products. Yes, Avedon's Dovima with Elephants is aesthetic, and it can be found on many art gallery walls and in collections of serious photography enthusiasts, but it was first a commercial image to sell Dior dresses. Avedon's American West portraits, however, are purely "fine art" because they were created to exist for their own sake.See synonyms for: fine art / fine arts
noun
a visual art considered to have been created primarily for aesthetic purposes and judged for its beauty and meaningfulness, specifically, painting, sculpture, drawing, watercolor, graphics, and architecture.
They left out photography, probably to avoid discussions like this, LOL
Avedon's Dovima with Elephants was not directly created to sell Dior fashions. Unlike Annie Leibovitz's Louis Vuitton work that is directly made for and paid for by the client for advertising purposes, it was an editorial image commissioned by the magazine, not Dior. Of course, they may have hoped Dior would place some advertising in the issue. And Dior certainly hoped to sell some clothes as a result of the image. Then you run into issues with art that has been created for posters, such as by Toulouse-Lautrec, or Weston's photos for Whitman's Leaves of Grass. Fine art is what the market and the experts at the time deem it to be. Some pieces are recognized as fine art much later than when they are created, some fall from grace after a while. It is a fickle market, a moving target.Using that definition, I'd say "fine art" can also be fitted into "art for art's sake" - i.e. artwork created to have no practical application, merely to provoke an aesthetic response. This is distinct from "applied arts" such as architecture, industrial design, or even closer to the gray area between "fine art" and "applied art", ceramics like tea kettles or serving plates. The portion of photography that falls under "fine art" is the portion like landscapes and nudes that serve no other purpose than aesthetic. Photojournalism, while it can be aesthetic, exists primarily to communicate information about events, and advertising/commercial photography is the same except it conveys information about products. Yes, Avedon's Dovima with Elephants is aesthetic, and it can be found on many art gallery walls and in collections of serious photography enthusiasts, but it was first a commercial image to sell Dior dresses. Avedon's American West portraits, however, are purely "fine art" because they were created to exist for their own sake.
that's cause its one of the "mechanical arts"Photography is usually lumped in the graphic arts, I found out.
Yes- there's a LOT of stuff that falls into a gray area. I'd say Weston's Leaves of Grass illustrations are pretty solid in the "fine art" category, because while they were made to illustrate a book, it's not like it was a science textbook, but itself already a work of art. The Tolouse-Lautrec stuff elides the commercial definition and becomes "fine art" because he worked both sides of that line, and in the end, he's been elevated into the canon of "fine artists".Avedon's Dovima with Elephants was not directly created to sell Dior fashions. Unlike Annie Leibovitz's Louis Vuitton work that is directly made for and paid for by the client for advertising purposes, it was an editorial image commissioned by the magazine, not Dior. Of course, they may have hoped Dior would place some advertising in the issue. And Dior certainly hoped to sell some clothes as a result of the image. Then you run into issues with art that has been created for posters, such as by Toulouse-Lautrec, or Weston's photos for Whitman's Leaves of Grass. Fine art is what the market and the experts at the time deem it to be. Some pieces are recognized as fine art much later than when they are created, some fall from grace after a while. It is a fickle market, a moving target.
Interesting situation with the Whitman book. Should the book be considered a work of art? Although the photos themselves may be considered fine art, the book (or at least the copy I have) has terrible reproduction and I think it fails as fine art. I believe Weston was disappointed in it. Reproductions I have seen in other books about Weston are much better.but itself already a work of art
It may not have been a good reproduction. But the poetry itself is "fine art", and the photo illustrations for it are also "fine art" in the sense that they were created as a work in themselves in response to another piece of art. Somewhat akin to (although in a totally different vein than) Duchamp's "LHOOQ".Interesting situation with the Whitman book. Should the book be considered a work of art? Although the photos themselves may be considered fine art, the book (or at least the copy I have) has terrible reproduction and I think it fails as fine art. I believe Weston was disappointed in it. Reproductions I have seen in other books about Weston are much better.
It should not have surprised me...my university was about the third one in the country to create a photography program actually within an Art Department.that's cause its one of the "mechanical arts"
Although the poetry and the photography may be art on their own merit, the book fails as art as far as I am concerned. Have you seen a decent version of this book?It may not have been a good reproduction. But the poetry itself is "fine art", and the photo illustrations for it are also "fine art" in the sense that they were created as a work in themselves in response to another piece of art. Somewhat akin to (although in a totally different vein than) Duchamp's "LHOOQ".
"...fails as fine art." Does that make it not fine art, or just not very good fine art? Or failed fine art that could become successful fine art if reprinted with excellent images?Interesting situation with the Whitman book. Should the book be considered a work of art? Although the photos themselves may be considered fine art, the book (or at least the copy I have) has terrible reproduction and I think it fails as fine art. I believe Weston was disappointed in it. Reproductions I have seen in other books about Weston are much better.
It seems to me there are two facets of art, the act of creation, and the act of experience. They might revolve around the same singularity, but have utterly different reasons, meanings, and purpose. Defined, "fine art" is usually considered art that carries a visual aesthetic, as opposed to "art" which includes music, theater, performance art, literature, and any other way the vast expressions by which artists satisfy whatever reason they feel the need to create. There is no pretention, no requirement for relevance or craft involved. The phrase simply denotes visually oriented art.
Craft has nothing to do with art. It might be part of creating art and fine art, but it might also be part of creating a mundane utilitarian object or display. For the artist, craft is a means to an end. Setting type isn't writing a book, although a typesetter might still aspire to create art with their typesetting. If an artist sets out to create art, and in their own mind manages to succeed in the expression, they have created art (or fine art, as the case may be) and someone else's subjective view (i.e. "that's not art") is only valid if the artist accepts it. There is plenty of art, particularly photography (fine art by definition), that is art to an audience of one. If someone creates or "crafts" something for a purpose other than art (or fine art) and an observer sees it as art, it is art, even if only to that person. Art can be popular and considered by many to be art, or it can be completely disregarded by all but the artist or an observer (listener, feeler, whatever), or it can fall anywhere in-between. If think something is art and you don't, or visa-versa, we are both right. Because art is completely and utterly subjective in this manner, attempts to define art by litmus ("this is art, that is not") will always fail, except for personally, where they are unerringly correct.
Art is in the intent of the creator or the eye of the beholder, or both.
That's my two cents. YMMV
I'd say then that the Weston/Whitman book is a situation where the craft has failed the art. I've never seen a copy of the book, regardless of edition/version, so I can't say if it fails.Although the poetry and the photography may be art on their own merit, the book fails as art as far as I am concerned. Have you seen a decent version of this book?
I would have to do some research on this but my impression is Duchamp's LHOOQ was not created as a response but rather as irreverent, Dada art.
I think since the reproduction failed the artist--Weston--the book fails as fine art. I do not have a first edition that Weston reacted so negatively to, but a much later one and the reproduction is mediocre. Apparently the original had a green cast to the photos as well as the paper, a choice the publisher made because of the book's title."...fails as fine art." Does that make it not fine art, or just not very good fine art? Or failed fine art that could become successful fine art if reprinted with excellent images?
Bingo!the person creating has something to say with it.
I watched the William Defoe movie last night, didn't quite work as a movie, interesting cinematography.Tell that to Van Gogh.
Using that definition, I'd say "fine art" can also be fitted into "art for art's sake" - i.e. artwork created to have no practical application, merely to provoke an aesthetic response. This is distinct from "applied arts" such as architecture, industrial design, or even closer to the gray area between "fine art" and "applied art", ceramics like tea kettles or serving plates. The portion of photography that falls under "fine art" is the portion like landscapes and nudes that serve no other purpose than aesthetic. Photojournalism, while it can be aesthetic, exists primarily to communicate information about events, and advertising/commercial photography is the same except it conveys information about products. Yes, Avedon's Dovima with Elephants is aesthetic, and it can be found on many art gallery walls and in collections of serious photography enthusiasts, but it was first a commercial image to sell Dior dresses. Avedon's American West portraits, however, are purely "fine art" because they were created to exist for their own sake.
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