What is a better term than "Hybrid Darkroom?"

[Ken Nadvornick]

For those of you obviously still demanding that the entire APUG membership, including its management, change the (highly successful over the last ~13 years) focus of this site, just to accommodate your own more recent changes in photographic workflow, please also be patient.

Sean is trying very hard yet again to help you out. Sadly, the last time he tried with the creation of DPUG for you guys, you all chose to ignore and denigrate it. Hopefully his next effort will not be so quickly dismissed by you.

Many of us have generously contributed to the fundraiser for this effort also in an attempt to help give you what you seem to be demanding. We truly hope that this new solution implementation will be more to your liking.

Ken

 

[Vaughn]

The dimroom. (aka alt process darkroom)

 

[Hatchetman]

I have little tolerance for those bemoaning lack of "hybrid" talk here. There are a million resources on the web for that stuff.

 

[removed account4]

Why is that such a bad thing? Talk about the film part and post images here. Talk about scanning etc. on DPUG etc.

About being a second class citizen, I think that is an exageration. If someone outright says anything digital sucks, that's just stupid (I don't think there are any good photographers who'd say things like that anyway, so consider it a filter). But if certain topics are off the table, that's not the same thing. It's simply part of APUG's mission - which isn't about art, creativity or photography as a whole. It's just a place about part of photography.

michael it is the difference between being a 2nd class citizens, and someone with duel citizenship.
its not hard to see crankiness even in this thread, maybe not someone saying digital s__ks but other stuff
which is equally as bad. maybe the folks acting like this don't realize the way they are being perceived ?
i've been to DPUG, HYBRIDPHOTO.com since it was born, and it is nice ... its like the difference between being in nyc and spirit lake iowa on new years eve.
a sleepy town is ok by me, but sometimes you want a little more than that.
i look forward to the site upgrade so maybe the 2 sites can both flourish without the crankiness or hard feelings between people
who want to be included in the photography conversation but are excluded.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

So be it. I'll participate when and where its reasonable for me to do so and leave the rest out of the discussion.

Excellent solution, Paul. This approach is, in fact, exactly the one we all strive to practice here. We discuss what is on-topic and thus reasonable, and we simply leave the rest of the off-topic out of the discussion. Or take it to a more appropriate forum where, truth be told, we stand a better chance of getting better responses anyway.

Now if we could just get everyone to see—and practice—the wisdom of your approach...



Ken

 

[DREW WILEY]

Frankenroom.

 

[rbultman]

Volderoom

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[RobC]

The dimroom. (aka alt process darkroom)

lets not beat about the bush. Hybrid is "largely" digital imaging and machine prints. Fact is those doing it will call their prints anything but inkjet prints. They are ashamed of what they are doing and try to hide it from the buyers by calling it some fancy marketing term.

If I'm not mistaken, every "Giclee" print ever made was printed on an inkjet printer of some kind. Now go into to some highend gallery where the photographer or artist is promoting their work as "Giclee" prints and ask if them if they really mean "Inkjet Prints". It's really good sport. You'll be amazed at how offended they are when you suggest their prints are "inkjet prints". They really are up themselves most of these people and consider inkjet prints to be terribly inferior even though thats what they are producing. They've lost touch with reality completely. Either that or they are trying to con the buyers. Most people calling themselves "artists" live in their own little virtual world which rarely overlaps with the real world.

If I go into an exhibition and the work says the medium is "Inkjet Print" then it shows the exhibitor has some integrity and is not trying to pull the wool over my eyes and/or they are not deluded about what they are doing. My estimation of them goes up immedaitely.

 

[rbultman]

Hybrid is digital imaging and machine prints.

Emphasis added. I assume by machine you mean inkjet printer judging from the rest of your post.

Not necessarily. There are those that use LF negatives created the traditional way, scan them, manipulate them in computer, create digital negatives on an inkjet printer, then use that digital negative in alt processes such as carbon printing. Analog in, analog out, digital in the middle, hybrid workflow. The middle part (scan, manipulate, print) needs to be discussed else where. Discussions regarding the "capture" and the final print making can occur here.

This middle part of the discussion could happen on DPUG without ever discussing the analog aspects. This may lead to cumbersome discussions, but there is no prohibition against discussing analog stuff on DPUG.

I do agree with your points regarding "honesty" and the names of the technologies used.

 

[RobC]

Emphasis added. I assume by machine you mean inkjet printer judging from the rest of your post.

Not necessarily. There are those that use LF negatives created the traditional way, scan them, manipulate them in computer, create digital negatives on an inkjet printer, then use that digital negative in alt processes such as carbon printing. Analog in, analog out, digital in the middle, hybrid workflow. The middle part (scan, manipulate, print) needs to be discussed else where. Discussions regarding the "capture" and the final print making can occur here.

This middle part of the discussion could happen on DPUG without ever discussing the analog aspects. This may lead to cumbersome discussions, but there is no prohibition against discussing analog stuff on DPUG.

Yes I acknowledge that some do this but the process involves digital imaging and most people having once digitised their work then proceed to output digitally which is generally on an inkjet or laser printer. i.e. machine print.

 

[DannL.]

I certainly do not use my computer equipment in the area where I produce prints. And vice versa. I scan prints and negatives when I so desire. Not often, but when needed. As far as I am concerned, doing so does not warrant giving it a name or a title. I find some of these titles and names given to processes about as worthless as tits on a boar hog. No offense to hogs BTW.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I have set my screen wallpaper to a scan of a negative shot with my Bronica ETRSi. My virtual Fedora Linux screen is an IR color shot using my Nikon digital camera while my Debian screen is a normal shot of the same image. My Ubuntu screen is a Mamiya RB shot of the lake at Durand Eastman Park. I enlarge some of my 35mm negatives to 8x10 and make contact prints using either my Azo emulsion or I make cyanotype prints.

How mixed can you get.

After more than 20 straight years with 8 - 12 hours / day in the DR processing film and prints, and this involved a huge throughput, I sometimes feel burned out and the editing of a digital photo, however obtained, is sometimes relaxing.

Then too, as I have said, my darkroom is set up right now for emulsion making and is so small it is hard to do analog printing, and it is very time consuming to switch back and forth.

But, I enjoy all of my analog photographic experience no matter the screams and rants (and sometimes wrong information) passed on here.

PE

 

[MattKing]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think anyone here on APUG would object to including in an otherwise on topic post a reference to a thread on DPUG.

So if you have a set of questions that cover both types of issues, start two threads - one in each forum - and put cross references in each thread.

I think I'm going to try to come up with some thread topics for DPUG, and make a point of starting a new thread each day .....

 

[removedacct1]

I have never, ever used pretentious words like "giclee" to describe my inkjet prints. I call them INKJET prints. I can't imagine feeling a need to use language that obfuscates the process/materials used.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Straight analogue discussion is perfectly welcome on DPUG.org, as are discussions of straight digital and hybrid digital/analogue processes of every sort. I'm hoping the improved integration of the two sites under the new software will make things easier to keep APUG true to its charter and to the membership that would like to keep APUG 100% analogue, while creating an avenue for discussion of digital and hybrid processes in a way that reflects the knowledge and experience of the APUG community without diluting APUG's content.

Meanwhile, tkamiya's observation is right on target:

A funny thing about DPUG is that many of us are actually there as well as here. There isn't a lot of chit chat going on and no one posts fictitious question to stir the pot. But, when you do post something, someone will jump on it with his/her answer. Signal/Noise ratio is quite high there.

DPUG.org is all business. Enjoy it while you can. APUG used to be more that way, too. If you want information, start a thread on DPUG, and it's pretty likely you'll get a good answer from one or two highly informed sources within a day or so. The response you get on APUG in the first five minutes after posting isn't always the best response.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have little tolerance for those bemoaning lack of "hybrid" talk here. There are a million resources on the web for that stuff.

+10,000

 

[Sirius Glass]

Yeah, but it seems dead.

It seems dead because of the the TROLLS spending all of their efforts to change APUG rather than keep DPUG active a useful.

 

[pbromaghin]

If everyone that has complained about the lack of hybrid discussion here, myself included, would start posting on DPUG, that site would get critical mass.

It's clear that all people who keep asking the same question about hybrid support here and expecting a different answer are crazy, myself included, to paraphrase A. Einstein.

Respect the charter. Post non-analog stuff on DPUG.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

BINGO!

 

[pschwart]

lets not beat about the bush. Hybrid is digital imaging and machine prints. Fact is those doing it will call their prints anything but inkjet prints. They are ashamed of what they are doing and try to hide it from the buyers by calling it some fancy marketing term.

If I'm not mistaken, every "Giclee" print ever made was printed on an inkjet printer of some kind. Now go into to some highend gallery where the photographer or artist is promoting their work as "Giclee" prints and ask if them if they really mean "Inkjet Prints". It's really good sport. You'll be amazed at how offended they are when you suggest their prints are "inkjet prints". They really are up themselves most of these people and consider inkjet prints to be terribly inferior even though thats what they are producing. They've lost touch with reality completely. Either that or they are trying to con the buyers. Most people calling themselves "artists" live in their own little virtual world which rarely overlaps with the real world.

If I go into an exhibition and the work says the medium is "Inkjet Print" then it shows the exhibitor has some integrity and is not trying to pull the wool over my eyes and/or they are not deluded about what they are doing. My estimation of them goes up immedaitely.

Hybrid is digital imaging and machine prints

You have an extremely limited view of the hybrid universe. DPUG started life as hybridphoto. The membership was mostly print makers practicing alt processes like platinum, carbon, hand-coated sliver, and lots of others. There was a huge depth of experience with film and traditional darkroom skills. Inkjet printers were mostly mentioned in the context of digital negatives. The focus naturally tended towards making prints -- something not so often discussed on APUG. There were no diatribes about rules and charters, and a lot of world-class experience getting shared. Honestly, the old hybrid site was a more welcoming place than APUG -- the attitudes were a lot more egalitarian. A lot of us were sad when it was recast as DPUG. The site may seem moribund, but if you post a coherent question, you will likely see a prompt response without a lot of drama or shaming. A lot of hybrid practitioners feel the same you do about inkjet prints. For most of us, inkjet printers are just a tool we use to create handcrafted prints using some pretty exotic chemistry and processes.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

There were no diatribes about rules and charters... Honestly, the old hybrid site was a more welcoming place than APUG... ...but if you post a coherent question, you will likely see a prompt response without a lot of drama or shaming.

Consider that your data is trying really hard to tell you something...

Ken

 

[pschwart]

Consider that your data is trying really hard to tell you something...

Ken

Yes, it is telling me that there is way too much attitude on APUG. I know you are not hearing this for the first time. Everyone is welcome on DPUG, but please leave the APUG attitude at the door.

 

[removedacct1]

Yes, it is telling me that there is way too much attitude on APUG. I know you are not hearing this for the first time. Everyone is welcome on DPUG, but please leave the APUG attitude at the door.

Exactly.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Yes, it is telling me that there is way too much attitude on APUG. I know you are not hearing this for the first time. Everyone is welcome on DPUG, but please leave the APUG attitude at the door.

Well, yes... but perhaps think a little deeper. Why is there any attitude at all, let alone way too much, on APUG? Here's a few additional observational data points that may help:

(1) Generalized human nature tells us that when someone is insulted, they get angry. And usually want to get even.

(2) Traditional film/plate/chemical photography was in play for over 160 years before software-abstracted photography arrived on the scene.

(3) Intellectual discourse carried out online is itself also abstracted, such that the conversing parties never stand face-to-face.

(4) Full participation on APUG requires member commitment in the form of financial commitment. This supposed to be a full-duplex transaction.

(5) APUG was instituted ~13 years ago as fully analog, has never changed, and has enjoyed nothing but increased success over time under this business model.

(6) In a sign of just how much its core user base supports that APUG model, the site owner recently asked for $1,500 to help offset upgrade costs. Unsolicited, he very quickly received ~$5,000.

(7) Sadly, this thread is not the first of its kind on APUG. Nor will it be the last of its kind regarding digital/hybrid on APUG, even with the newly upgraded system software. Why? Start over at (1)...

Perhaps these points, once connected, may help better illuminate the true state of affairs?

Ken

 

[Photo Engineer]

"Software Abstracted Photography"!

I like that. SAP. Good description.

PE

 

[Bob Carnie]

It dosen't but this is one of two sites I shop at. - my point is that when I joined darkroom work through enlargers ruled, digital was not as close as it is today.. for the last 10 years I have spent much time here discussing darkroom work and helping where I can, I am just pointing out that the darkroom is changing and I would like to be able to talk about the new changes and materials that are being aimed at my current darkroom.

I have yet to find a site that is more relevant to the darkroom than APUG and would like to see some flexibility in its original MANDATE - even if it means a bit of change.. as our darkroom environments are changing dramatically. I would like to talk about this here as this is where darkrooms are cherished.

I don't think anyone serious about photography would (or can) say hybrid (or 100% digital for that matter) is a lower quality medium, that it isn't cutting edge, or that it isn't the goal of most workers. Those ships have long since sailed. But to me APUG is an "end-to-end" resource only for non-digital workflows. It's specifically about those materials and techniques - not photography in general, not art, not museums. Why does APUG need to be a one stop shop for everything photographic?