Washing Film - Best Environmentally Friendly Way to Do It?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by ozphoto, Nov 2, 2008.

  1. timparkin

    timparkin Member

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    Sorry for restarting this thread (I won't be the last I'm sure).

    Don't both of these methods reduce the concentration continually (i.e. it's impossible to reduce the concentration to zero, as long as their is a gradient the concentration in the film will go down).

    Hence both of these techniques can target any desired concentration - they may do so at different rates but the only variable we are concerned about is the amount of water used to get there.

    Hence both are as archival as each other (for some length of process).

    I've not done the math but I find it difficult to believe that the flowing water method would use 'less' water (to target the desired concentration) as the water cycling method.

    The only way this can be wrong is if the water exchange method and the flow method are asymptotic to different values - I don't understand how this could be.

    Tim
     
  2. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    From the math, it seems that the water change method reaches a different value than the running water method unless you extend the change method to near infinity. This is due to the equillibration of salts in the tray during individual changes.

    Just my feeling from the math.

    PE
     
  3. OptiKen

    OptiKen Subscriber

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    Definitely looking forward to that, PE
     
  4. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Ken, have you looked at TF-5?? That quote is very old.

    PE
     
  5. jsmithphoto1

    jsmithphoto1 Member

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    Ron,

    Although it has been years, how has that fixer come along?


    -Jamison
     
  6. jsmithphoto1

    jsmithphoto1 Member

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    My apologies... didn't skip all the way to the end to view new posts :wink:
     
  7. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Actually, I've done better. But who wants to play with messy chemicals, right? See Super Fix in the articles session.

    PE
     
  8. Neal

    Neal Subscriber

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    The Ilford washing method can be found in all of the film data sheets. It is in the processing section.

    Good luck,

    Neal Wydra
     
  9. jsmithphoto1

    jsmithphoto1 Member

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    Who DOESN'T want to play with messy chemicals? :wink:
     
  10. nolanr66

    nolanr66 Member

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    Illford has some pretty good PDF information on conserving water during the rinse/wash cycle if you use a spiral tank.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2016
  11. MartinCrabtree

    MartinCrabtree Member

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    Plain old cheap store brand dish soap. I've been using it in cooling systems of my race bikes forever. Just a teensy little drop lowers surface tension which is the desired result. I use a toothpick and dab into the liquid to apply.
     
  12. GarageBoy

    GarageBoy Member

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    That's what the whole thread has been discussing
     
  13. Ronald Moravec

    Ronald Moravec Member

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    Been doing this for decades. I do add one extra wash. This is works well because all the water is exchanged. DO not use hardening fix or you will be back to 25 min wash.

    For T Max film, I use two or three stand washes after completing the Ilford sequence to get the dye out. Use fresh fix or you can wash all day and the dye remains.

    All said and done, i/2 gal will wash your film.
     
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  15. MartinCrabtree

    MartinCrabtree Member

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    I use a hardening fixer (Kodafix) with a hypo clear,a 5-10-20 Ilford wash followed by a drop of PhotoFlo in a single roll 35mm tank. Do I need to use an extended wash? If so could you please explain why?
     
  16. MartinCrabtree

    MartinCrabtree Member

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    Could someone please help me with an answer? Thanks.
     
  17. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    Yes.
    Because the hardener hardens the gelatin, which makes it more difficult to wash out the water soluble compounds created when the fixer reacts with the unexposed and undeveloped silver halides.
    Kodak recommends using hypo clear followed by a 5 minute trickle (one complete change of water in 5 minutes) wash.
     
  18. bvy

    bvy Subscriber

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    I also stated using Kodafix and have these same concerns. I use a variation of the Ilford method : 1,1,5,5,10,10,15,15,20,20. I don't use hypo clear. I wonder if this is enough.
     
  19. r.reeder

    r.reeder Member

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    I use hypo clearing agent, then wash for 30 seconds, then use Permawash for 30 seconds, then wash again for 30 seconds, then a minute or so in a wetting agent, Photo-flo, then hang it up to dry.
     
  20. MartinCrabtree

    MartinCrabtree Member

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    Thank you. I have found the film curls little when using hardening fixer. I bought it at a going out of business sale w/o paying attention. Am a cheap bastid so I cannot toss it out.
     
  21. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    The best authors, in their books, (Haist of EK and Mason of Ilfors for example) disavow the Ilford method and the use of either HE or HCA at the end of the process. I went through the math elsewhere to explain the reasons. Washing is a dynamic situation governed by the differential equation dc/dt or the change in concentration vs the time and this is with either static or running water. Before I hear yawns, this is essentially a slightly faster flow than Matt has posted above.

    With the multiple changes, the last tray or can always has some hypo left.

    And, HCA or HE is just another chemical to dispose of.

    PE