Washing Film - Best Environmentally Friendly Way to Do It?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by ozphoto, Nov 2, 2008.

  1. Dr Croubie

    Dr Croubie Member

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    I've generally disregarded the pink/purple staining on my negs, on most of them it just seems to go away even without the UV, just in a sleeve in a folder in a mostly-darkened room.

    Except a roll of XP2 that I shot once a few years ago, got it processed by a regular lab in regular C41, and it came out nicely clear as XP2 should do.
    Went to try printing it again last week, after 2 years in a folder, and it seems to have gone purple when it definitely wasn't when I got it.
    As it's C41, re-fixing probably isn't going to do much (and I don't know if RapidFixer is a good idea on C41 negs anyway, even the clearbase ones), is it worth just washing the hell out of it?
     
  2. CatLABS

    CatLABS Subscriber

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    And i totally forgot to respond to the OP - 10 water changes are all you need if you use a hypoclearing agent. In a nut shell.
     
  3. 37th Exposure

    37th Exposure Member

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    Thanks. May I ask how to proceed? Like how many minutes, etc.
     
  4. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Threads merged.
     
  5. fotch

    fotch Member

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    thank you
     
  6. CatLABS

    CatLABS Subscriber

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    You just need to fill, and dump.
    If you are doing roll film, you can flip the reels over so the top goes to the bottom half way through.
     
  7. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I repeat! Use a retained Silver and retained Hypo test kit to test your wash conditions.

    PE
     
  8. OP
    OP
    ozphoto

    ozphoto Subscriber

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    PE,

    Maybe I'm a bit slow :whistling: but who sells these kits? I tried a Google search and it didn't bring up anything I could match as being even remotely close to what you're suggesting. I've been meaning to actually invest in a Retained Silver Kit, but so far, drawn a blank. (Although TH does have it's drawbacks and nuances - so that could explain a lot!!:wink:)
     
  9. Philippe-Georges

    Philippe-Georges Member

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    Dear PE,

    Just to be sure we are talking about the same:

    - retained silver test = Kodak Silver Residual Test => 1+9 KRST in plain water: a drop on the clear end of a B&W film, when the colour turns out yellowish then fix again…

    - retained hypo test = 1/1000 Potassium manganate (KMnO4) in plain water: a few drops in the last bit of washing water dripping out of the emulsion, when the colour turns out brownish then wash again…

    Thanks for commenting.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2014
  10. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    The retained Silver test is Sodium Sulfide in water, and the retained Hypo test is Acetic Acid + Silver Nitrate. The first forms a black color on the paper or film and the second forms a yellow color.

    I think that Freestyle, the Formulary and Fotoimpex all have these as standard stock items. Kodak and others have published the formulas for both along with color charts to give the user a hint as to his "quality".

    PE
     
  11. pdeeh

    pdeeh Member

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  12. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Thanks. I had lost my hard copy of that Kodak chart.

    PE
     
  13. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Member

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    You may find my film washing test can answer some of these questions. I tested Ilford's and Kodak's published methods, and some variants and then used the retained hypo test to see if they worked or not. http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/84180-film-washing-test.html

     
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  15. 37th Exposure

    37th Exposure Member

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    Thanks all. I learned quite a lot following this thread.
     
  16. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Subscriber

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    oh do tell.is it alkali?:confused:
     
  17. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Subscriber

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    Yes, that's the processbut for me,the easiest way to keepthe concentration from getting into equilibriumis a constant low flowof fresh water;not the least amount of waterbutthe fastest wash.:laugh:
     
  18. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    That is so old Ralph, it has a beard! :D

    It is acidic and is called TF-5. It can be had from the Formulary. We are also working on another one.

    TF-5 is odorless.

    PE
     
  19. John51

    John51 Member

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    Sorry for not reading past more than your thread PE but it's late and I'm off to bed now. Just to say that history is a strange medium. Mid 70's (1976 iirc?) we had a severe drought in the UK. Hosepipe bans etc. The water shortage was bad enough to be of interest in the photo mags. RC paper best thing since sliced bread and all that.

    Anyway, up comes an a letter from Ilford about how to conserve water by using the ever increasing number of inversions then dump routine. This was imo, and I'm pretty sure to everyone else at the time, a purely stop gap measure to use during a water shortage.

    Lo and behold, in the fullness of time it becomes an archival method. Where did that come from? I was buying loads of photography mags at the time, trying to soak up knowledge like a sponge and I had never heard of it before that drought.
     
  20. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    John, this method has caused quite a bit of controversy. Mason (of Ilford) in his textbook more or less says that it is not archival and others have agreed. A lot of math was used in his proof which I posted here and there on APUG.

    I have run tests and find that there is nothing better than running water, but you must judge by water conditions (salt content) and drought conditions.

    PE
     
  21. Ming Rider

    Ming Rider Member

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    Speaking purely from my own experience, I've only ever used the Ilford Method and occasionally check my neg's. Even the earliest ones from 10 years ago still look as good as the day they were done. Contrasty, no fading and plenty of edge detail.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  22. fotch

    fotch Member

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    Not to disagree with you, however, I would be more concern with much longer times, like 50 or 100 years.
     
  23. Ming Rider

    Ming Rider Member

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    Oh I hadn't thought of that. :smile:

    Mind you, in a 100 years I don't think I'll be concerned with anything. :D


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  24. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    You often need comparison prints that were kept cool, dry and in the dark. I have seen changes in as little as 5 years and as great as 40+ in color. In B&W it takes a little longer.

    I have done wash and fixer tests from 5" wash and 15" fix up to 1 hour wash and 1/2 hour fix. This was a complex factorial involving Kodak rapid fix and several others. The bottom one is that there is no easy answer!!!!!

    PE
     
  25. bvy

    bvy Subscriber

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    I plan to start working with fiber paper. Currently, I process everything larger than 5x7 in print drums. I use the Unicolor drums with the Unicolor reversing motor base. Is there any reason I can't also wash/rinse the paper in these drums? I'm thinking five to ten changes of water, and a few minutes agitation on the motor base with each cycle. The only potential concern I have with this is that the paper is not being rinsed flat, and it might make for more stubborn curling. Thoughts?
     
  26. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Subscriber

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    'washing' is actually a bit of a misnomer when it comes to film and prints. it's as much a diffusion process as it is washing and for thatall you need is to keep the chemical concentration in the emulsionand the water as far from an equilibriumas posible.So, a minute but constant flo of fresh water is ideal.print and film washers are designed to do just that.altrnatively,you might want to look into reeiminssuch as the Ilford archival washing technique.However, I find them to be more laborious and less convinient than archival washers who need little or no attention during washing.:smile:Other than that,cut out a shower or a car wash for every darkroom session and you've done your bitfor sensible water consumtion. I never understood how we would explain to peeople deprived of fresh watr resources that we flush our toilets with prfectly fine drinking water
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2014
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