V600 capable of higher resolution than assumed?

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grat

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There is no data anywhere. I do not have it, you do not have it, scandig doesn't have it. Nobody has studied this scientifically in any way; no significant sample size, no statistical analysis; yet scandig is making claims about the resolution of all these scanners they have basically never studied. Thus they are suspect.

They're also usually evaluating "review" scanners that have been handed around from one company to another-- And one of the critical issues with the Epson v series is you really, really need to ensure the transport locks are engaged when moving it around. Further, the V7xx/8xx have not one, but two lenses, and depending on which area of the frame you're scanning, you're using a different lens. And the two lenses are focused at different heights.

So if you're using the USAF 1951 Resolution Target at maximum resolution, and it's not 3mm above the glass, your lens is out of focus-- which explains the frequently crappy appearance of the scanned target.
 

brbo

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What I find somewhat remarkable is that in terms of real resolution, flatbeds haven't really progressed beyond the 4990. At least not the affordable ones. I suppose the scan bar manufacturing technology kind of stuck where it already was back then. I bet it shares a lot with laser printer illuminator/led bar technology and that's also pretty much stuck at 1200dpi AFAIK. One place I worked at they appeared to have enough difficulty keeping that technology available, let alone even think about progressing. It's just no use pushing it any further; no way to recoup that investment.
Anyway, I digress. Interesting stuff in its own right, but all too easy to get lost in it.

The limiting factor is the lens. It needs to be small, cover huge area and still be cheap enough. Anyone who has seen lenses in pro flatbeds and compared them to a lens from a Epson/Canon consumer flatbed will not be disappointed by 2.500dpi that some modern consumer flatbeds can provide. For me, with the current design of these scanners, 2.500dpi is a miracle, not a disappointment.

But technology for FAR better results is available, good and cheap area sensors, cpu power for stitching. Lets just hope that somebody stops iterating the current design and introduces still affordable scanner built around technology that wasn't available 30-40 years ago.

That article is laden with the words "assume", and "probably", and has very few facts at it's foundation when you dig into the details.

There was another article that was being bandied around that used a back-handed method for determining MTF that concluded the maximum resolution of the Epson V750 was 700 PPI.

Personally, having spent some time getting to know my V800, I can say there is a difference between a 2400 PPI scan and a 3200 PPI scan in terms of resolution-- something absolutely not possible if the maximum resolution is 1200 PPI.

I have addressed "1.200dpi" claim in that article.

If you see difference between your 2.400dpi and 3.200dpi scans that is unfortunately NO proof that you are resolving more than 2.400dpi.

400% of 2.400dpi scan
Screenshot 2022-09-10 at 00.36.44.png


400% of 4.800dpi scan downsized to 2.400dpi
Screenshot 2022-09-10 at 00.37.04.png


4.800dpi resolves more than 2.400dpi scan. Neither is close to real 2.400dpi.
 
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_T_

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The limiting factor is the lens. It needs to be small, cover huge area and still be cheap enough. Anyone who has seen lenses in pro flatbeds and compared them to a lens from a Epson/Canon consumer flatbed will not be disappointed by 2.500dpi that some modern consumer flatbeds can provide. For me, with the current design of these scanners, 2.500dpi is a miracle, not a disappointment.

But technology for FAR better results is available, good and cheap area sensors, cpu power for stitching. Lets just hope that somebody stops iterating the current design and introduces still affordable scanner built around technology that wasn't available 30-40 years ago.



I have addressed "1.200dpi" claim in that article.

If you see difference between your 2.400dpi and 3.200dpi scans that is unfortunately NO proof that you are resolving more than 2.400dpi.

400% of 2.400dpi scan
View attachment 315553

400% of 4.800dpi scan downsized to 2.400dpi
View attachment 315554

4.800dpi resolves more than 2.400dpi scan. Neither is close to real 2.400dpi.

Can you post the 4,800 dpi at 4,800 dpi? Because it seems to follow that if you reduce the resolution of the file, the resolution will decrease.

Besides that here’s another problem with the test target. You’re calling a difference where I see none. It’s somewhat subjective
 

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Can you post the 4,800 dpi at 4,800 dpi? Because it seems to follow that if you reduce the resolution of the file, the resolution will decrease.


(click for full size)

Besides that here’s another problem with the test target. You’re calling a difference where I see none. It’s somewhat subjective

Well, then we need to make it less subjective. Download both files (original 2.400dpi and 4.800 downsampled to 2.400dpi). Compare the file sizes of both files, bigger file is the one with more detail.
 

grat

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Why are you down sampling the 4800 to 2400? That's like comparing 0-60 times between a straight 4 and a straight 6, but making it "fair" by taking out two spark plugs.

You've made your results entirely dependent on the quality of the down sampling algorithm.
 

Les Sarile

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Now we’re getting what I’m here for. Evidence. If anyone else has any scans to compare I’d be ecstatic to see them.



No need to apologize. This is exactly what I’m here for. I’d rather be proven wrong and learn better than continue to be wrong without my knowledge.

My problem with filmscanner.info is one of methodology. They have sample sizes of one, they have no statistical analysis because of that, and they do not publish the precise steps they took to obtain their data.

It’s very difficult to draw conclusions based on anecdotal evidence like this. Hence my skepticism.

Good on you as science is all about skepticism.

In order to distinguish real resolution differences, you have to have a target with sufficient detail captured on film that exceeds the scanner. In my own tests, I used ISO 12233 rescharts arranged 4 high. I shot the target using an ideal setup with various films. I don't have a V600 but had a V500 which I understand is very similar. I also had the V700 and still have the Coolscans. In this particular example, I used Fuji Velvia and scanned it with the three scanners and here are the 100% crops with no enhancements in post.

Disclaimer: In "real world" shots - taken under less then ideal conditions, the differences may not be as obvious.

From the V500 @ 2400, 3200, 4800 & 6400 with and without ICE
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Epson V500 by Les DMess, on Flickr

From V700 @ 2400, 3200, 4800 & 6400 with and without ICE
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Epson V700 by Les DMess, on Flickr

From the Coolscan 5000 @ 4000 with two levels of ICE and without.
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Coolscan 5000 by Les DMess, on Flickr

You'll notice that the V500 doesn't achieve any more detail above 2400 and this is not to say it is achieving 2400dpi worth of detail. With the V700, there is more detail achieved up to 4800 setting and again this is not to say it is achieving 4800dpi of detail either. Specially when you compare the V700's 4800dpi of detail to that achieved by the Coolscan @ 4000dpi.
 

brbo

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Why are you down sampling the 4800 to 2400? That's like comparing 0-60 times between a straight 4 and a straight 6, but making it "fair" by taking out two spark plugs.

You've made your results entirely dependent on the quality of the down sampling algorithm.

You can downsample the file yourself. _T_ has poor eyesight and asked for a way to compare resolution without looking at the scans. If you have a better way to compare files without using our eyes... I've posted links left and right for you, it's all out there.

What's not out there are YOUR scans of resolution targets on your V600s that outresolve grain.
 
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_T_

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Good on you as science is all about skepticism.

In order to distinguish real resolution differences, you have to have a target with sufficient detail captured on film that exceeds the scanner. In my own tests, I used ISO 12233 rescharts arranged 4 high. I shot the target using an ideal setup with various films. I don't have a V600 but had a V500 which I understand is very similar. I also had the V700 and still have the Coolscans. In this particular example, I used Fuji Velvia and scanned it with the three scanners and here are the 100% crops with no enhancements in post.

Disclaimer: In "real world" shots - taken under less then ideal conditions, the differences may not be as obvious.

From the V500 @ 2400, 3200, 4800 & 6400 with and without ICE
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Epson V500 by Les DMess, on Flickr

From V700 @ 2400, 3200, 4800 & 6400 with and without ICE
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Epson V700 by Les DMess, on Flickr

From the Coolscan 5000 @ 4000 with two levels of ICE and without.
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Coolscan 5000 by Les DMess, on Flickr

You'll notice that the V500 doesn't achieve any more detail above 2400 and this is not to say it is achieving 2400dpi worth of detail. With the V700, there is more detail achieved up to 4800 setting and again this is not to say it is achieving 4800dpi of detail either. Specially when you compare the V700's 4800dpi of detail to that achieved by the Coolscan @ 4000dpi.

Would you say that HP5 under real world circumstances is a poor choice of film for these sorts of tests because it does not have resolution that exceeds the resolution of the scanner? That’s kind of my whole point
 
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_T_

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Good on you as science is all about skepticism.

In order to distinguish real resolution differences, you have to have a target with sufficient detail captured on film that exceeds the scanner. In my own tests, I used ISO 12233 rescharts arranged 4 high. I shot the target using an ideal setup with various films. I don't have a V600 but had a V500 which I understand is very similar. I also had the V700 and still have the Coolscans. In this particular example, I used Fuji Velvia and scanned it with the three scanners and here are the 100% crops with no enhancements in post.

Disclaimer: In "real world" shots - taken under less then ideal conditions, the differences may not be as obvious.

From the V500 @ 2400, 3200, 4800 & 6400 with and without ICE
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Epson V500 by Les DMess, on Flickr

From V700 @ 2400, 3200, 4800 & 6400 with and without ICE
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Epson V700 by Les DMess, on Flickr

From the Coolscan 5000 @ 4000 with two levels of ICE and without.
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Coolscan 5000 by Les DMess, on Flickr

You'll notice that the V500 doesn't achieve any more detail above 2400 and this is not to say it is achieving 2400dpi worth of detail. With the V700, there is more detail achieved up to 4800 setting and again this is not to say it is achieving 4800dpi of detail either. Specially when you compare the V700's 4800dpi of detail to that achieved by the Coolscan @ 4000dpi.
I'm looking at your scans and it looks like you did a really bad job. Look at the largest features in your v700 image. See how blurry they are? Now look at brbo's 35mm Epson scan right above me and compare. Theres a fiber of dust at the top edge that's easily 4 times the resolution of your scan.
 

grat

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What's not out there are YOUR scans of resolution targets on your V600s that outresolve grain.

As I believe I've mentioned before, I don't own a V600, so that would be kind of difficult.

Secondly, I'm going to go out on a limb, and assume that the resolution of the film is, for all intents and purposes, the resolution of the grain. You can't have higher resolving power than your grain will allow.

Given that, and most modern B&W films resolve to 100 lp/mm or better, and very few (if any) camera lenses do-- How the heck do you produce a photo that resolves the grain at it's finest detail? I suppose some CHS II 20 in my Konica IIIA would produce some nice resolution images, but still-- would I be hitting 100 lp/mm? I doubt the lens will resolve to 200 lp/mm (Which Tmax 400 can accomplish, so the CHS II isn't that important I suppose).

Most of my lenses are cheap, not sharp. But, I have some acceptable scans at various resolutions of various media here.
 

Les Sarile

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As I believe I've mentioned before, I don't own a V600, so that would be kind of difficult.

Secondly, I'm going to go out on a limb, and assume that the resolution of the film is, for all intents and purposes, the resolution of the grain. You can't have higher resolving power than your grain will allow.

Given that, and most modern B&W films resolve to 100 lp/mm or better, and very few (if any) camera lenses do-- How the heck do you produce a photo that resolves the grain at it's finest detail? I suppose some CHS II 20 in my Konica IIIA would produce some nice resolution images, but still-- would I be hitting 100 lp/mm? I doubt the lens will resolve to 200 lp/mm (Which Tmax 400 can accomplish, so the CHS II isn't that important I suppose).

Most of my lenses are cheap, not sharp. But, I have some acceptable scans at various resolutions of various media here.

I too was curious how my bought used super cheap manual focus lenses were - Pentax M 50mm F4 macro, so I tested them using Kodak Techpan shot @ ISO25 and processed using Kodak Technidol.

On the left bottom is the full target setup taken on 35mm Kodak Techpan. Above it is a scan of that film using my Pentax K20D 14.6MP 4672 X 3104. Above that is from a Coolscan 4000dpi 5700 X 3780. And on top is a scan using a Nikon D800 36MP 7360 X 4912. Even though the D800 applies more pixels then the Coolscan, they are very similar with a slight edge still going to the Coolscan.

Resolution testing my SMC Pentax-M 50mm F4 macro lens by Les DMess, on Flickr

The big crop on the right is about a 4.5X magnification of the center of the target and you can clearly see detail captured on the film that was not resolved by the scanning methods I used.
 

brbo

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As I believe I've mentioned before, I don't own a V600, so that would be kind of difficult.

Yes, sorry about that. I got you and Mr. _T_ confused.

Secondly, I'm going to go out on a limb, and assume that the resolution of the film is, for all intents and purposes, the resolution of the grain. You can't have higher resolving power than your grain will allow.

Given that, and most modern B&W films resolve to 100 lp/mm or better, and very few (if any) camera lenses do-- How the heck do you produce a photo that resolves the grain at it's finest detail?

Again, sorry, it wasn't you that claimed V600 resolves beyond grain. But some people are interested in grain or displaying grain structure in the most faithful way possible. I'm not one of them and I will be first to admit that none of my scanners do a proper job at resolving/displaying grain in the same way I can see it in a wet print. That said, I'm aware that there's another imaging chain involved in the wet print so grain in wet print ≠ grain in film.

I suppose some CHS II 20 in my Konica IIIA would produce some nice resolution images, but still-- would I be hitting 100 lp/mm? I doubt the lens will resolve to 200 lp/mm (Which Tmax 400 can accomplish, so the CHS II isn't that important I suppose).

Most of my lenses are cheap, not sharp. But, I have some acceptable scans at various resolutions of various media here.

Now imagine arguing about scanners with a LF shooter (averse to using a material that will have detail beyond 100 lpmm - like a resolution target). "My V700 scans of 8x10 film have every bit as much detail as a drum or hi-end flatbed scan, ergo V700 is as good as any scanner out there". I never measured what I can get out of my admittedly pedestrian LF kit, but I'd probably have to have pretty much all the planets aligned to get more than 40 lp/mm, so, yes, for LF anything that will give you 2.000dpi will most probably be good enough (not for the "look at that pretty grain" guys, though).


For illustration, the typical consumer flatbed CCD sensor and lens (taken out of Canon 9000f scanner - if I'm not mistaken I've measured that scanner at about 1.600dpi with supplied holder); Schneider Componon-S 5.6/100 enlarging lens included for size comparison:


IMG_2943 copy.jpg


Compare that to a lens (on the far right side) from a hi-end Scitex Eversmart flatbed. Eversmart uses stitching so that lens needs to cover only a fraction of the area that the button-sized consumer flatbed lens needs to cover.

1.1x-test-www-Closeuphotography-com.jpg
 
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Helge

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Secondly, I'm going to go out on a limb, and assume that the resolution of the film is, for all intents and purposes, the resolution of the grain. You can't have higher resolving power than your grain will allow.

Well you assume wrong.
It’s quite analogous to saying the highest possible frequency on tape is limited by the magnetic domains and ferro grain and in turn tape noise.
Obviously not true.

Grain is not binary and grain overlaps.

Grain and resolution is of course not completely divorced as concepts. But there is plenty of resolving power to be had beyond the single grain.

It’s also very difficult to spot grain in a scan.
Even high quality ones.
What you are seeing is most likely grain clusters, grain aliasing. And on top of that a pretty random slice of that structure depending on where the DoF happened to lie.
Various optical and electron microscope images of film and grain is misleading for this reason. Either you see the very top of the emulsion, or you see a very specific slice.
That will make grain look very badly distributed, spare and random.
 
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_T_

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Yes, sorry about that. I got you and Mr. _T_ confused.



Again, sorry, it wasn't you that claimed V600 resolves beyond grain. But some people are interested in grain or displaying grain structure in the most faithful way possible. I'm not one of them and I will be first to admit that none of my scanners do a proper job at resolving/displaying grain in the same way I can see it in a wet print. That said, I'm aware that there's another imaging chain involved in the wet print so grain in wet print ≠ grain in film.



Now imagine arguing about scanners with a LF shooter (averse to using a material that will have detail beyond 100 lpmm - like a resolution target). "My V700 scans of 8x10 film have every bit as much detail as a drum or hi-end flatbed scan, ergo V700 is as good as any scanner out there". I never measured what I can get out of my admittedly pedestrian LF kit, but I'd probably have to have pretty much all the planets aligned to get more than 40 lp/mm, so, yes, for LF anything that will give you 2.000dpi will most probably be good enough (not for the "look at that pretty grain" guys, though).


For illustration, the typical consumer flatbed CCD sensor and lens (taken out of Canon 9000f scanner - if I'm not mistaken I've measured that scanner at about 1.600dpi with supplied holder); Schneider Componon-S 5.6/100 enlarging lens included for size comparison:


View attachment 315636

Compare that to a lens (on the far right side) from a hi-end Scitex Eversmart flatbed. Eversmart uses stitching so that lens needs to cover only a fraction of the area that the button-sized consumer flatbed lens needs to cover.

1.1x-test-www-Closeuphotography-com.jpg

Excuse me please if my terminology was incorrect. I was under the mistaken impression that the resolution of the grain was equal to the resolution of the system creating the image. That the grain was the limiting factor here.

I don’t care one whit about accurately displaying grain, I care about the image itself.

What I should have been saying, apologies for my ignorance, is that the scanner appears to be out resolving the image.

Thanks to @Helge for clearing that up for me.
 

Adrian Bacon

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Real resolution is real resolution. And the scanner is not designed to oversample at 6,400 at all 6,400 is the nominal optical resolution. I’m not claiming it achieves 6,400 dpi but rather that filmscanner.info performed their tests inadequately, leaving a significant amount of resolution on the table unreported.

In my experience, filmscanner.info tends to report worst case resolution and their numbers should be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to flatbed scanners. I have a v850Pro and a glass USAF resolution target and it's true that flatbeds generally don't resolve anywhere near the hardware resolution of the sensor, but... in my experience, with careful effort, they also perform better than what is generally reported by filmscanner.info. Conversely, filmscanner.info also tends to report best case resolution with actual dedicated, designed to scan film scanners, but, in both cases, their numbers are not so far off as to just throw them out the window and disregard them, but rather to use them as a guidepost of what to expect.
 

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In my experience, filmscanner.info tends to report worst case resolution and their numbers should be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to flatbed scanners. I have a v850Pro and a glass USAF resolution target and it's true that flatbeds generally don't resolve anywhere near the hardware resolution of the sensor, but... in my experience, with careful effort, they also perform better than what is generally reported by filmscanner.info. Conversely, filmscanner.info also tends to report best case resolution with actual dedicated, designed to scan film scanners, but, in both cases, their numbers are not so far off as to just throw them out the window and disregard them, but rather to use them as a guidepost of what to expect.

The bold part... They probably test scanners straight out of the box with OEM holders. It's not reporting just the worst case resolution when OEM holders work as they do, that is worse than third party or modified holders, for scanners without AF. And it's not reporting just the best case scenario when dedicated scanners with AF actually do what they are supposed to do, auto-focus reliably and thus maximising the resolution of the scanner.

I'd guess that ScanDig reports what they measure and because they actually publish the scans of the resolution targets (something that other people complaining about ScanDig tend not to do - I really wonder why they think that words are better than pics in this case) you can form your own opinion on whether they misreport the resolution numbers.
 

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A word about "resolving grain". It doesn't actually take a very high level of resolution to "resolve grain."

But what do we mean when we say we are "resolving grain". As a practical matter it means that an image (or portion of image) with no inherent image structure looks somewhat noisy, in the sense that parts of the image that are very close to each other will look different, one darker than the other, with the lighter and darker spots being pretty much randomly distributed across the image. Color film can have different colors randomly distributed as well as lighter and darker spots.

If resolution is lowered grain does not go away. It simply gets reduced. If the negative or slide is grainy then taking an image of the negative or slide (by scanning or by printing in the darkroom) will look grainy, even if the resolution of the rendered image is much less than the negative or slide. (I'm simplifying slightly, but only slightly.) Basically, if the resolution is reduced by a factor of two then the grain also gets reduced by a factor of two. I'm assuming here that grain is measured in terms of a standard deviation of the image brightness. There are some effects related to how we actually perceive grain, which aren't necessarily identical to simple statistical measures like standard deviation. To keep it simple, I won't get into that discussion.

Related to this is the fact that, as other have noted, what looks like grain in a rendered image is not actually individual silver particles in the negative or slide. Those are far to small to see in ordinary photography. However, at ordinary resolutions those individual particles are statistically distributed, so if you sample regions (for example, with a scanner) that are larger than the individual silver particles the image still looks grainy because of the randomness of the placement of the individual silver particles. Suppose for example, there were on average 100 silver particles in a scanner pixel. If we make a reasonable assumption that the number of particles follows a Poisson distribution then the standard deviation is 10 silver particles, or about 10%. A denser region might have, say, 400 silver particles. The standard deviation will be 20 silver particles, or about 5%. I am somewhat oversimplifying this, but the point is that a large region of an image that nominally should be all the same density will not in fact have the same density at all sampling windows (for example, pixels). The density will vary from one pixel to the next in a kind of random pattern, and we perceive that as grain, even though the actually silver particles are far to small to resolve.

The bottom line is that "resolving grain" in a scanned image is relatively meaningless and tells us relatively little about the resolution of the scanner, at least not in absolute terms. A scanner with relatively poor resolution can still look like it "resolves the grain."
 
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Adrian Bacon

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It’s also very difficult to spot grain in a scan.
Technically, when scanning (and also printing via enlarger or contact print) we're not ever actually seeing the grain, but rather the light leaking between and diffracting around the grain and the shadows being cast by the grain (or grain clusters) themselves. When looking at the inverted image, you're looking at the light that made it past the grain. When looking at the the raw image before inversion, again, the light that made it past the grain, the dark spots aren't actually the grain, but rather the shadow being cast, and when inverted, it's the opposite, so when looking at the positive image, if you see a dark "grain" or "grain cluster", you're actually seeing the light that didn't get blocked by grain, and the light spots are actually the shadows being cast by the grain. How's that for a brain bender?

All that being said, only the purists care about this, and in my experience, only the purists or the ones that think analog is the only way accept anything but the highest resolution scan possible, and even then, it's usually not enough resolution. The vast majority of people who shoot film don't understand it and frankly don't care. They just want a good rendering of their images that they can look at on their phone or computer and share online, and if you can deliver acceptably sharp scans in the 2MP to 8MP ballpark, 99%+ of those customers will be more than happy. In short, if they can go full screen on their 4K display and it don't look soft as mush, they're happy. Ironically, 2MP doesn't look soft as mush, so that should tell you were the bar really is for most people outside of these forums.
 

Adrian Bacon

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They probably test scanners straight out of the box with OEM holders.
Of course they do, they're testing what you buy from the manufacturer. Like I said, with careful effort it's not hard to generally get better performance than what they report for flatbeds, but, it's not anything like a doubling of performance. Their numbers aren't that horribly wrong, they just tend to be on the low side for most of the flatbeds, and for the dedicated film scanners, it's pretty hard to exceed their published numbers, but pretty easy to fubar it and get lower numbers.
 

Helge

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The vast majority of people who shoot film don't understand it and frankly don't care. They just want a good rendering of their images that they can look at on their phone or computer and share online, and if you can deliver acceptably sharp scans in the 2MP to 8MP ballpark, 99%+ of those customers will be more than happy. In short, if they can go full screen on their 4K display and it don't look soft as mush, they're happy. Ironically, 2MP doesn't look soft as mush, so that should tell you were the bar really is for most people outside of these forums.
The vast majority are not the ones setting the trends and they are the first to leave when FUD sets in and the shine of newness wears off.

There has always been a small minority inspiring and leading the masses. Not projecting here. I’m probably not one of those.
They are not satisfied with good enough.
They are not obsessed with perfect either.

Fact of the matter is, film need not be relegated to iPhone territory scans.
Sooner or later someone will want a poster size print or use. crop of a photo.
Or an analog sceptic friend with a splinter of devils mirror in their eye, will feel the need to vindicate their own camera/phone purchase, and decides to do a direct compare of a film scan and a digital camera output.

If all of the files are on the 8 - 12 MP territory, that comparison, will either result in immediate “WTF am I doing here” feeling or sowing the seeds of FUD.
 
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At some point additional resolution doesn’t matter. You can sit and watch super 35 20 foot high on a gigantic theater screen from the front row and you’re not going to complain that the real resolution of the system is too low.

The larger you print the further the viewing distance the lower the required resolution.

There’s no way that you could ever make a print that needs the whole resolution of a medium grain 400 iso film scanned on a consumer flat bed. You’re always going to be throwing data away.

It’s not even possible to make a print big enough with enough resolution to do it without stitching multiple sheets of paper together. They don’t make rolls big enough
 

Adrian Bacon

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If all of the files are on the 8 - 12 MP territory, that comparison, will either result in immediate “WTF am I doing here” feeling or sowing the seeds of FUDD.

That's going to happen anyway because almost nobody is qualified to even do such a comparison, even if they had top flight scans.

I started off delivering only 24MP scans in Adobe DNG format, then updated to 32MP scans and can now deliver very good 45MP scans, and guess what? Despite my very reasonable and competitive pricing, the very downscaled small 2MP scan size is the most money most people are willing to spend on scans. When I ask which scans they want, they ask about the price difference between the scans and choose based on price, not on scan resolution or technical specs. It's very rare that they even ask about resolution, and you'd be shocked and amazed at how many people don't know what a tiff file is, much less a floating point DNG file. It wasn't until I "dumbed down" my offerings that my business really took off, because then people didn't have to know anything other than you got processing, and could get small, medium, or large scans, and/or a choice between two different sized prints. I've actually had to change how I deliver files because a significant number of people never even look at their scans on the computer, they use their phones or tablets, and I've had to accommodate that to cut down on the amount of time I spend on support getting people their scans. It's not the same world it was even 5 years ago.

There has always been a small minority inspiring and leading the masses. Not projecting here. I’m probably not one of those.

I'm a realist and don't want to project either, but at the same time, I'd like to think that I'm at least a little bit of a trail blazer in choosing to not go with traditional lab equipment and going down the path that I did, but if there's anything I've learned it's that the path I chose has almost no real appreciators, and even among the people that do know and care, a lot of them will disqualify your path on some minor technical thing that doesn't really make any difference, but that they don't personally approve of, so you often end up not getting their business anyway, which leaves you marketing to the masses just to stay in business, who in my experience, largely don't know, and as I said before, as long as your least expensive offering doesn't look terrible, largely don't care, because they're mostly looking at it on a phone or tablet screen.

Fact of the matter is, film need not be relegated to iPhone territory scans.
Sooner or later someone will want a poster size print or use. crop of a photo.

I completely agree, which is why my baseline scan is 45MP, however, even my smallest sized deliverable makes a passable poster sized print. The medium size scan would look better if you decided to get up close to the print, but if the small scan was printed 24x36, framed, and hanging on the wall, if you walked into the room and saw it, you wouldn't think it was low resolution. Same if they had it as a screen saver or slideshow on a giant TV. Sure, the medium sized scan would look marginally sharper upon close inspection, but nobody would complain that the small scan looked soft. Even if you had the two scans side by side, a lot of people would be hard pressed to point out specific differences between them.

At some point additional resolution doesn’t matter. You can sit and watch super 35 20 foot high on a gigantic theater screen from the front row and you’re not going to complain that the real resolution of the system is too low.
This is largely true. Yes, resolutions increase over time due to the march of technology progression, and capitalism's need to keep selling you new stuff, but the reality of the matter is 2MP to 8MP is the sweet spot for most viewing environments, including most prints, even the big ones. You can see a really big image quality jump from standard def displays to HD displays, and if the content was mastered at 8K or higher resolution, a marginal increase in visible picture quality from HD to 4K displays, but it's already well into diminishing returns at that point. If the content was mastered in 4K, the difference between watching in HD or 4K is shockingly close, and this is with top flight practices and procedures to acquire as much resolution as possible and keep the entire authoring chain as high resolution as possible for as long as possible. Yeah, 5 to 10 years from now we'll be acquiring in 8K or higher res as standard practice, and 4K to 8K displays will totally be the norm, but I think it will be that simply due to attrition over time and not because it looks sharper. We're already at sensor resolution densities that make old lenses look soft compared to modern optics when zooming in and pixel peeping. Anybody who tells you otherwise hasn't seen an old lens put on a newish body, then taken the same picture with an even remotely newish lens on the same body. It's like night and day. But, you zoom out, look at it on a nice big 4K display, the difference is a lot harder to see.
 

brbo

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There’s no way that you could ever make a print that needs the whole resolution of a medium grain 400 iso film scanned on a consumer flat bed. You’re always going to be throwing data away.

With a 2.000dpi consumer flatbed that's like 6x magnification. You never saw a print from 35mm film wider than 10"?

It’s not even possible to make a print big enough with enough resolution to do it without stitching multiple sheets of paper together. They don’t make rolls big enough

Oh, boy... They do make them wide. And looooong.
 

Adrian Bacon

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With a 2.000dpi consumer flatbed that's like 6x magnification. You never saw a print from 35mm film wider than 10"?



Oh, boy... They do make them wide. And looooong.

The most common widths here in the U.S. are 44 and 60 inches by a couple hundred feet. You can go bigger than that, but then it's speciality territory, or paper made for a very specific printing machine. For a short while I looked at getting one of those canon 60 inch wide printers, but then sanity took over and I went with their 17x22 printer. In hind-sight, I should have gone with the 24 inch wide model so I could at least print on roll paper, but the 17 inch model I went with has been a solid workhorse and I've gotten very good use out of it. I might push up to the 44 inch wide model in the next year to two.

I've printed 35mm 12x18 and 16x24. It's fine. If you want to look at it through a magnifying glass, it could have more detail and the grain is quite apparent, but at those sizes, hanging on a wall, no complaints.
 
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