There is no data anywhere. I do not have it, you do not have it, scandig doesn't have it. Nobody has studied this scientifically in any way; no significant sample size, no statistical analysis; yet scandig is making claims about the resolution of all these scanners they have basically never studied. Thus they are suspect.
What I find somewhat remarkable is that in terms of real resolution, flatbeds haven't really progressed beyond the 4990. At least not the affordable ones. I suppose the scan bar manufacturing technology kind of stuck where it already was back then. I bet it shares a lot with laser printer illuminator/led bar technology and that's also pretty much stuck at 1200dpi AFAIK. One place I worked at they appeared to have enough difficulty keeping that technology available, let alone even think about progressing. It's just no use pushing it any further; no way to recoup that investment.
Anyway, I digress. Interesting stuff in its own right, but all too easy to get lost in it.
That article is laden with the words "assume", and "probably", and has very few facts at it's foundation when you dig into the details.
There was another article that was being bandied around that used a back-handed method for determining MTF that concluded the maximum resolution of the Epson V750 was 700 PPI.
Personally, having spent some time getting to know my V800, I can say there is a difference between a 2400 PPI scan and a 3200 PPI scan in terms of resolution-- something absolutely not possible if the maximum resolution is 1200 PPI.
The limiting factor is the lens. It needs to be small, cover huge area and still be cheap enough. Anyone who has seen lenses in pro flatbeds and compared them to a lens from a Epson/Canon consumer flatbed will not be disappointed by 2.500dpi that some modern consumer flatbeds can provide. For me, with the current design of these scanners, 2.500dpi is a miracle, not a disappointment.
But technology for FAR better results is available, good and cheap area sensors, cpu power for stitching. Lets just hope that somebody stops iterating the current design and introduces still affordable scanner built around technology that wasn't available 30-40 years ago.
I have addressed "1.200dpi" claim in that article.
If you see difference between your 2.400dpi and 3.200dpi scans that is unfortunately NO proof that you are resolving more than 2.400dpi.
400% of 2.400dpi scan
View attachment 315553
400% of 4.800dpi scan downsized to 2.400dpi
View attachment 315554
4.800dpi resolves more than 2.400dpi scan. Neither is close to real 2.400dpi.
Can you post the 4,800 dpi at 4,800 dpi? Because it seems to follow that if you reduce the resolution of the file, the resolution will decrease.
Besides that here’s another problem with the test target. You’re calling a difference where I see none. It’s somewhat subjective
Now we’re getting what I’m here for. Evidence. If anyone else has any scans to compare I’d be ecstatic to see them.
No need to apologize. This is exactly what I’m here for. I’d rather be proven wrong and learn better than continue to be wrong without my knowledge.
My problem with filmscanner.info is one of methodology. They have sample sizes of one, they have no statistical analysis because of that, and they do not publish the precise steps they took to obtain their data.
It’s very difficult to draw conclusions based on anecdotal evidence like this. Hence my skepticism.
Why are you down sampling the 4800 to 2400? That's like comparing 0-60 times between a straight 4 and a straight 6, but making it "fair" by taking out two spark plugs.
You've made your results entirely dependent on the quality of the down sampling algorithm.
Good on you as science is all about skepticism.
In order to distinguish real resolution differences, you have to have a target with sufficient detail captured on film that exceeds the scanner. In my own tests, I used ISO 12233 rescharts arranged 4 high. I shot the target using an ideal setup with various films. I don't have a V600 but had a V500 which I understand is very similar. I also had the V700 and still have the Coolscans. In this particular example, I used Fuji Velvia and scanned it with the three scanners and here are the 100% crops with no enhancements in post.
Disclaimer: In "real world" shots - taken under less then ideal conditions, the differences may not be as obvious.
From the V500 @ 2400, 3200, 4800 & 6400 with and without ICE
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Epson V500 by Les DMess, on Flickr
From V700 @ 2400, 3200, 4800 & 6400 with and without ICE
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Epson V700 by Les DMess, on Flickr
From the Coolscan 5000 @ 4000 with two levels of ICE and without.
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Coolscan 5000 by Les DMess, on Flickr
You'll notice that the V500 doesn't achieve any more detail above 2400 and this is not to say it is achieving 2400dpi worth of detail. With the V700, there is more detail achieved up to 4800 setting and again this is not to say it is achieving 4800dpi of detail either. Specially when you compare the V700's 4800dpi of detail to that achieved by the Coolscan @ 4000dpi.
I'm looking at your scans and it looks like you did a really bad job. Look at the largest features in your v700 image. See how blurry they are? Now look at brbo's 35mm Epson scan right above me and compare. Theres a fiber of dust at the top edge that's easily 4 times the resolution of your scan.Good on you as science is all about skepticism.
In order to distinguish real resolution differences, you have to have a target with sufficient detail captured on film that exceeds the scanner. In my own tests, I used ISO 12233 rescharts arranged 4 high. I shot the target using an ideal setup with various films. I don't have a V600 but had a V500 which I understand is very similar. I also had the V700 and still have the Coolscans. In this particular example, I used Fuji Velvia and scanned it with the three scanners and here are the 100% crops with no enhancements in post.
Disclaimer: In "real world" shots - taken under less then ideal conditions, the differences may not be as obvious.
From the V500 @ 2400, 3200, 4800 & 6400 with and without ICE
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Epson V500 by Les DMess, on Flickr
From V700 @ 2400, 3200, 4800 & 6400 with and without ICE
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Epson V700 by Les DMess, on Flickr
From the Coolscan 5000 @ 4000 with two levels of ICE and without.
Fuji RVP50-03_18 Coolscan 5000 by Les DMess, on Flickr
You'll notice that the V500 doesn't achieve any more detail above 2400 and this is not to say it is achieving 2400dpi worth of detail. With the V700, there is more detail achieved up to 4800 setting and again this is not to say it is achieving 4800dpi of detail either. Specially when you compare the V700's 4800dpi of detail to that achieved by the Coolscan @ 4000dpi.
What's not out there are YOUR scans of resolution targets on your V600s that outresolve grain.
As I believe I've mentioned before, I don't own a V600, so that would be kind of difficult.
Secondly, I'm going to go out on a limb, and assume that the resolution of the film is, for all intents and purposes, the resolution of the grain. You can't have higher resolving power than your grain will allow.
Given that, and most modern B&W films resolve to 100 lp/mm or better, and very few (if any) camera lenses do-- How the heck do you produce a photo that resolves the grain at it's finest detail? I suppose some CHS II 20 in my Konica IIIA would produce some nice resolution images, but still-- would I be hitting 100 lp/mm? I doubt the lens will resolve to 200 lp/mm (Which Tmax 400 can accomplish, so the CHS II isn't that important I suppose).
Most of my lenses are cheap, not sharp. But, I have some acceptable scans at various resolutions of various media here.
As I believe I've mentioned before, I don't own a V600, so that would be kind of difficult.
Secondly, I'm going to go out on a limb, and assume that the resolution of the film is, for all intents and purposes, the resolution of the grain. You can't have higher resolving power than your grain will allow.
Given that, and most modern B&W films resolve to 100 lp/mm or better, and very few (if any) camera lenses do-- How the heck do you produce a photo that resolves the grain at it's finest detail?
I suppose some CHS II 20 in my Konica IIIA would produce some nice resolution images, but still-- would I be hitting 100 lp/mm? I doubt the lens will resolve to 200 lp/mm (Which Tmax 400 can accomplish, so the CHS II isn't that important I suppose).
Most of my lenses are cheap, not sharp. But, I have some acceptable scans at various resolutions of various media here.
Secondly, I'm going to go out on a limb, and assume that the resolution of the film is, for all intents and purposes, the resolution of the grain. You can't have higher resolving power than your grain will allow.
Yes, sorry about that. I got you and Mr. _T_ confused.
Again, sorry, it wasn't you that claimed V600 resolves beyond grain. But some people are interested in grain or displaying grain structure in the most faithful way possible. I'm not one of them and I will be first to admit that none of my scanners do a proper job at resolving/displaying grain in the same way I can see it in a wet print. That said, I'm aware that there's another imaging chain involved in the wet print so grain in wet print ≠ grain in film.
Now imagine arguing about scanners with a LF shooter (averse to using a material that will have detail beyond 100 lpmm - like a resolution target). "My V700 scans of 8x10 film have every bit as much detail as a drum or hi-end flatbed scan, ergo V700 is as good as any scanner out there". I never measured what I can get out of my admittedly pedestrian LF kit, but I'd probably have to have pretty much all the planets aligned to get more than 40 lp/mm, so, yes, for LF anything that will give you 2.000dpi will most probably be good enough (not for the "look at that pretty grain" guys, though).
For illustration, the typical consumer flatbed CCD sensor and lens (taken out of Canon 9000f scanner - if I'm not mistaken I've measured that scanner at about 1.600dpi with supplied holder); Schneider Componon-S 5.6/100 enlarging lens included for size comparison:
View attachment 315636
Compare that to a lens (on the far right side) from a hi-end Scitex Eversmart flatbed. Eversmart uses stitching so that lens needs to cover only a fraction of the area that the button-sized consumer flatbed lens needs to cover.
Real resolution is real resolution. And the scanner is not designed to oversample at 6,400 at all 6,400 is the nominal optical resolution. I’m not claiming it achieves 6,400 dpi but rather that filmscanner.info performed their tests inadequately, leaving a significant amount of resolution on the table unreported.
In my experience, filmscanner.info tends to report worst case resolution and their numbers should be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to flatbed scanners. I have a v850Pro and a glass USAF resolution target and it's true that flatbeds generally don't resolve anywhere near the hardware resolution of the sensor, but... in my experience, with careful effort, they also perform better than what is generally reported by filmscanner.info. Conversely, filmscanner.info also tends to report best case resolution with actual dedicated, designed to scan film scanners, but, in both cases, their numbers are not so far off as to just throw them out the window and disregard them, but rather to use them as a guidepost of what to expect.
Technically, when scanning (and also printing via enlarger or contact print) we're not ever actually seeing the grain, but rather the light leaking between and diffracting around the grain and the shadows being cast by the grain (or grain clusters) themselves. When looking at the inverted image, you're looking at the light that made it past the grain. When looking at the the raw image before inversion, again, the light that made it past the grain, the dark spots aren't actually the grain, but rather the shadow being cast, and when inverted, it's the opposite, so when looking at the positive image, if you see a dark "grain" or "grain cluster", you're actually seeing the light that didn't get blocked by grain, and the light spots are actually the shadows being cast by the grain. How's that for a brain bender?It’s also very difficult to spot grain in a scan.
Of course they do, they're testing what you buy from the manufacturer. Like I said, with careful effort it's not hard to generally get better performance than what they report for flatbeds, but, it's not anything like a doubling of performance. Their numbers aren't that horribly wrong, they just tend to be on the low side for most of the flatbeds, and for the dedicated film scanners, it's pretty hard to exceed their published numbers, but pretty easy to fubar it and get lower numbers.They probably test scanners straight out of the box with OEM holders.
The vast majority are not the ones setting the trends and they are the first to leave when FUD sets in and the shine of newness wears off.The vast majority of people who shoot film don't understand it and frankly don't care. They just want a good rendering of their images that they can look at on their phone or computer and share online, and if you can deliver acceptably sharp scans in the 2MP to 8MP ballpark, 99%+ of those customers will be more than happy. In short, if they can go full screen on their 4K display and it don't look soft as mush, they're happy. Ironically, 2MP doesn't look soft as mush, so that should tell you were the bar really is for most people outside of these forums.
If all of the files are on the 8 - 12 MP territory, that comparison, will either result in immediate “WTF am I doing here” feeling or sowing the seeds of FUDD.
There has always been a small minority inspiring and leading the masses. Not projecting here. I’m probably not one of those.
Fact of the matter is, film need not be relegated to iPhone territory scans.
Sooner or later someone will want a poster size print or use. crop of a photo.
This is largely true. Yes, resolutions increase over time due to the march of technology progression, and capitalism's need to keep selling you new stuff, but the reality of the matter is 2MP to 8MP is the sweet spot for most viewing environments, including most prints, even the big ones. You can see a really big image quality jump from standard def displays to HD displays, and if the content was mastered at 8K or higher resolution, a marginal increase in visible picture quality from HD to 4K displays, but it's already well into diminishing returns at that point. If the content was mastered in 4K, the difference between watching in HD or 4K is shockingly close, and this is with top flight practices and procedures to acquire as much resolution as possible and keep the entire authoring chain as high resolution as possible for as long as possible. Yeah, 5 to 10 years from now we'll be acquiring in 8K or higher res as standard practice, and 4K to 8K displays will totally be the norm, but I think it will be that simply due to attrition over time and not because it looks sharper. We're already at sensor resolution densities that make old lenses look soft compared to modern optics when zooming in and pixel peeping. Anybody who tells you otherwise hasn't seen an old lens put on a newish body, then taken the same picture with an even remotely newish lens on the same body. It's like night and day. But, you zoom out, look at it on a nice big 4K display, the difference is a lot harder to see.At some point additional resolution doesn’t matter. You can sit and watch super 35 20 foot high on a gigantic theater screen from the front row and you’re not going to complain that the real resolution of the system is too low.
There’s no way that you could ever make a print that needs the whole resolution of a medium grain 400 iso film scanned on a consumer flat bed. You’re always going to be throwing data away.
It’s not even possible to make a print big enough with enough resolution to do it without stitching multiple sheets of paper together. They don’t make rolls big enough
With a 2.000dpi consumer flatbed that's like 6x magnification. You never saw a print from 35mm film wider than 10"?
Oh, boy... They do make them wide. And looooong.
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