Using Distilled Water For Development - Do You Still Use a Wetting Agent?

[chuckroast]

Hi all,

Title basically says it all. I've been noticing increased mineral deposits/water spots on my negatives lately and I'm going to try developing with only distilled water this weekend to see if I can cure it. I was wondering if, when using distilled water, I should still use a wetting agent for the final wash? Or does that add another variable which can introduce inconsistencies with the negative, and mean I would be better off with just the distilled water?

Thanks
D

Yes, I use distilled for dev and fix, but tap for stop and wash.

Final rinse is Photoflo mix 1:200 plus 25ml/l isopropyl alcohol.

Film hung and gently wiped downward with fingers in scissors configuration for 35mm and 120.

4x5 hung diagonally from corner and beaded water wicked away after about 10 min from the lowest corner by touching a piece of paper towel right at that corner.

 

[snusmumriken]

Film hung and gently wiped downward with fingers in scissors configuration for 35mm and 120.

As drying marks are almost always on the back of the film, and the emulsion is the more delicate side, what I do now is to hang the (35mm) film, hold it taut by pulling the bottom end, and run one finger down the back of the film only to swipe off the bulk of the water. This is after a final rinse in de-ionised water + wetting agent, and a good hard shake while the film is still in the spiral. I live in a very hard water area, and this works for me. If I leave out the finger wipe, I get drying marks.

 

[xkaes]

Here is the link that @mshchem referenced: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/making-and-using-a-kodak-photo-flo-stock-solution.396/

I don't know why he goes to all that trouble. PhotoFlo already has alcohol in it, and all you need is a syringe or eye dropper for normal use.

 

[slackercrurster]

Hi all,

Title basically says it all. I've been noticing increased mineral deposits/water spots on my negatives lately and I'm going to try developing with only distilled water this weekend to see if I can cure it. I was wondering if, when using distilled water, I should still use a wetting agent for the final wash? Or does that add another variable which can introduce inconsistencies with the negative, and mean I would be better off with just the distilled water?

Thanks
D

You have to test it. Wetting agents differed a lot back in the day. Formulas changed, I don't know where they are at now. Water also differs greatly across the country. Some of it is just filthy.

Distillation residue from 1 gallon of Richmond, IN tap water.

Here...see where you fit in if in the USA.

Distilling water is a quick acid test you can do to find out what residue is in your water.

No…it is not recycled motor oil. It is the distillation residue from 1 gallon of Richmond, IN tap water. Article Dedication in Honor of Alfred Eisenstaedt & Andreas Feininger Selection…

danielteolijr.wordpress.com

 

[xkaes]

Shades of Flint, Michigan. Makes me glad I got a Corning MegaPure MP-1 distiller years ago.

 

[MattKing]

I don't know why he goes to all that trouble. PhotoFlo already has alcohol in it, and all you need is a syringe or eye dropper for normal use.

View attachment 402708

It is actually relatively difficult to decant repeatably consistent amounts of the concentrate using an eye dropper or syringe, if your target total volume is 1/2 a litre or so.
But it is easy to consistently decant 25ml of the stock solution, to a satisfactory standard of repeatable accuracy.
It is probably important to understand that I'm always working out of a temporary darkroom - so that influences how much measuring equipment and other resources I keep immediately at hand in the plastic bins that hold everything for film development - each of which resides in a cupboard, has to be unpacked for each session, with the contents being used, then cleaned and dried after every session, repacked into the bins, and then stored back in the cupboard.
At least the film developing stuff is stored on site. Much of my printing stuff is off site, and has to be brought in each time.

 

[xkaes]

It is actually relatively difficult to decant repeatably consistent amounts of the concentrate using an eye dropper or syringe, if your target total volume is 1/2 a litre or so.

It depends on how much you need, of course, but I usually mix small amount of chemicals -- often less than 10 ounces, for submini film. My 1ml syringes are scaled at 1/100th of a ml. That's accurate enough for me.

 

[MattKing]

It depends on how much you need, of course, but I usually mix small amount of chemicals -- often less than 10 ounces, for submini film. My 1ml syringes are scaled at 1/100th of a ml. That's accurate enough for me.

If one has lab grade equipment and are skilled at using it, their practical options are different than they are for most.

 

[snusmumriken]

It is actually relatively difficult to decant repeatably consistent amounts of the concentrate using an eye dropper or syringe, if your target total volume is 1/2 a litre or so.

It really isn’t, Matt. We have discussed this before, here. That’s a 1ml syringe. Total cost $0. One could dispense 0.05 ml reliably with it. I actually use 0.5ml wetting agent to 500ml deionised water.

 

[chuckroast]

It is actually relatively difficult to decant repeatably consistent amounts of the concentrate using an eye dropper or syringe, if your target total volume is 1/2 a litre or so.
But it is easy to consistently decant 25ml of the stock solution, to a satisfactory standard of repeatable accuracy.
It is probably important to understand that I'm always working out of a temporary darkroom - so that influences how much measuring equipment and other resources I keep immediately at hand in the plastic bins that hold everything for film development - each of which resides in a cupboard, has to be unpacked for each session, with the contents being used, then cleaned and dried after every session, repacked into the bins, and then stored back in the cupboard.
At least the film developing stuff is stored on site. Much of my printing stuff is off site, and has to be brought in each time.

As it happens, my original glass Photoflo 200 bottle - refilled many times - has a cap that, when filled, holds 2.5 ml. Most convenient.

It really isnt that critical so long as you don't add excessive amounts. A tenth or two under seems to have no discernible effect on function.

 

[JerseyDoug]

Our water supply switches back and forth semiannually between well water and reservoir water. And it can be pretty nasty for a week or so every time it switches. To avoid water related issues with my negatives I use distilled water for the entire process from developing to washing. I develop single rolls of 35mm film in a ss tank that uses 250 ml of liquid. The process uses a total of 1.25 liter of distilled water for developer + stop + 3 changes of wash water per the Ilford washing method. I also use 0.375 liter of distilled water to make 500 ml of working fixer solution that I use to fix ten rolls* and then discard.

After the third wash step of 20 inversions I add one drop of LFN and invert the tank an additional five times. When I take the film out of the tank I hold the two ends of the film and snap it straight to remove most of the water and hang it in the shower with a weighted drying clip on the bottom and very gently wipe down both sides of the film with a Kimwipe. The film dries very quickly with virtually no dust.

*(Using the fixer for 10 rolls and snapping the film straight are both practical for me because I bulk load 12-exposure rolls of 35mm film. YMMV.)

 

[pbromaghin]

Hi all,

Title basically says it all. I've been noticing increased mineral deposits/water spots on my negatives lately and I'm going to try developing with only distilled water this weekend to see if I can cure it. I was wondering if, when using distilled water, I should still use a wetting agent for the final wash? Or does that add another variable which can introduce inconsistencies with the negative, and mean I would be better off with just the distilled water?

Thanks
D

By the time the film has been put through stop, fixer and who knows how many gallons of rinse, any developing liquid is looonnngggg gone.

 

[Bill Burk]

 

[snusmumriken]

View attachment 402744

Bill, in case your sarcasm is aimed at me (because I mentioned 0.5 in 500ml in post #34), I have to point out that I use the now-discontinued Mirasol rather than Photoflo, and the recommended dose is 1:400. But anyway, I do what works for me, and so should you. The point under discussion above was how do you measure small amounts, if you want a more precise measure than ‘a few drops’.

 

[BMbikerider]

I think I must be from a very small group of people who process their own films and take no extra precautions with the water I use and I cannot remember the last time I had a significant mark on any film I processed be it colour or B&W. It is tap water that is used right through, no distilled or de-ionised water used at all. I do use Kodak fotoflow in the final rinse after the washing stages but only a very weak solution perhaps even less than Kodak suggest.
I wonder if this happens because I only use developer once then discard, and that is for colour or B&W

It may be the water supply we have in the NE of England it is neither hard nor very soft and in theory it should contain some extra particles because mainly the water supplied is that which drains off the upland peat bogs and at time can be, but not always quite brown in colour.

Even hanging them up to dry is not special. I process the films always late at night and hang them up on the door frame between my lounge and kitchen area when all have gone to bed which means there is no air disturbance at night. When I lived in the south of England the water was totally different and I did have some problems occasionally especially with E6. (I don't use E6 film now).

 

[koraks]

I wonder if this happens because I only use developer once then discard, and that is for colour or B&W

Developer has nothing to do with it. It's possible your water is exceptionally soft. Keep in mind that drying spots mostly appear on 35mm; if you happen to shoot not a lot of that (but I recall you in fact do), you may never run into drying marks.

the water supplied is that which drains off the upland peat bogs

That would make it less likely for drying marks to evolve as the water might be on the acidic side, which helps the calcium ions to remain in solution.

I know that if I take no precautions, I get drying marks a solid 100% of the time on 35mm film and virtually never on 120 or sheet film. Btw, I also use developer one shot pretty much all of the time, but as said, that doesn't matter in this context.

This is a clear case of YMMV and finding out the best approach that works for your individual use case. My present method is to wipe the excess water off of the shiny side of 35mm film; this prevents drying marks from appearing. I sometimes use Adoflo, sometimes I use demineralized water for the final wash - none of that really seems to matter in my case as the wiping is really the only solid determinant for the appearance of drying marks.

 

[xkaes]

All this reminds me that I have to change the filters in the darkroom water supply. Thanks for giving me MORE work to do!

 

[cliveh]

Hi all,

Title basically says it all. I've been noticing increased mineral deposits/water spots on my negatives lately and I'm going to try developing with only distilled water this weekend to see if I can cure it. I was wondering if, when using distilled water, I should still use a wetting agent for the final wash? Or does that add another variable which can introduce inconsistencies with the negative, and mean I would be better off with just the distilled water?

Thanks
D

Just use deionised water after the wash, before you hang the negs to dry. When submersed in deionised water, agitate and twirl the film for about 30 seconds and hang up to dry. Don't use wetting agent or Foto Flow.

 

[Peter Schrager]

I've been using LFN since the 70's. I mix two drop wetting agent, two ounces 91% isopropyl alcohol plus enough distilled water to make one liter. I soak my negatives a minimum of one minute in the solution before hanging to dry. With roll film, I shake off as much liquid as possible before unspooling to hang. I haven't had water spot issues since I gave up on Photoflo.

And ive been using photo flo and distilled the entire time with no issues. .EVER .
Glad there is an alternative out there

 

[xkaes]

And ive been using photo flo and distilled the entire time with no issues. .EVER .

If it ain't broke...........

 

[Bill Burk]

Bill, in case your sarcasm is aimed at me (because I mentioned 0.5 in 500ml in post #34), I have to point out that I use the now-discontinued Mirasol rather than Photoflo, and the recommended dose is 1:400. But anyway, I do what works for me, and so should you. The point under discussion above was how do you measure small amounts, if you want a more precise measure than ‘a few drops’.

Not personally directed, and not sarcasm really. Just matter of fact the conversation with RattyMouse really changed my flow.

I used to be “a couple drops are fine” but then tested for sheeting.

And complete sheeting occurs around 1:500 for Photo-Flo 200 using bottled water. I assume 1:200 gives more room for error, or works with a wider range of water quality.

But sheeting.

That’s what I want. Because it carries away dust.

 

[snusmumriken]

Not personally directed, and not sarcasm really. Just matter of fact the conversation with RattyMouse really changed my flow.

Sorry, Bill, I misread your post then. I thought you were parodying the discussion as a children’s tale, because I didn’t remember that there was previously a forum member called RattyMouse. Were you referring to this old thread?

 

[MattKing]

I didn’t remember that there was previously a forum member called RattyMouse

No comment

All this reminds me that I have to change the filters in the darkroom water supply. Thanks for giving me MORE work to do!

We didn't cause you more work - the extra unwanted stuff in your water is the culprit!

 

[Sirius Glass]

View attachment 402744

About time. All good.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Dishwashing liquid is more than just a pure surfactant, it has all sorts of stuff to make it gentle for hands and to smell good and to help cut grease.
Photo flo is simply a surfactant.
Here is the link that @mshchem referenced: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/making-and-using-a-kodak-photo-flo-stock-solution.396/

If anyone would like more background about the other chemicals in dishwashing liquid, look at PE's [Photo Engineer's] posts. PE worked at Kodak on the R&D for many films including Kodachrome and Ektachrome and was our resident expert.